Author Topic: David Godman Explains Death of mind  (Read 17864 times)

Subramanian.R

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Re: David Godman Explains Death of mind
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2010, 04:19:55 PM »

Dear srkudai,

I am sorry for the intervention.

Bhagavan Ramana says in His answer to Question No. 11 in Who
am I?:

When other thoughts arise, one should not pursue them, but
should inquire 'To whom do they arise?'   It does not matter
how many thoughts arise.  As each thought arises, one should
inquire with diligence, 'To whom has this thought arisen?'  The
answer that would emerge would be 'To me'.  Thereupon if one
inquires 'Who am I?', the mind will go back to its source; and
the thought that arose will become quiescent.  With repeated
practice in this mannter, the mind will develop the skill to stay
in its source......

Therefore, the question 'Where from this thought arises or To
whom has this thought arisen' is not wrong.  It is the first step
to understand that I-thought is the primary thought, after which
other thoughts arise.  Bhagavan Ramana says in Answer 10,
that the thought 'Who am I?' will destroy all other thoughts,
and like the stick used for stirring up the burning pyre, it will
itself in the end get destroyed.  Then, there will arise Self-
realization.   


Arunachala Siva.

Nagaraj

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Re: David Godman Explains Death of mind
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2010, 04:25:48 PM »
Dear I,

Precisely -

When other thoughts arise, one should not pursue them, but
should inquire 'To whom do they arise?'   It does not matter
how many thoughts arise.  As each thought arises, one should
inquire with diligence, 'To whom has this thought arisen?'  The
answer that would emerge would be 'To me'.  Thereupon if one
inquires 'Who am I?', the mind will go back to its source; and
the thought that arose will become quiescent.  With repeated
practice in this mannter, the mind will develop the skill to stay
in its source......


Therefore, the question 'Where from this thought arises or To
whom has this thought arisen' is not wrong.  It is the first step
to understand that I-thought is the primary thought, after which
other thoughts arise.  Bhagavan Ramana says in Answer 10,
that the thought 'Who am I?' will destroy all other thoughts,
and like the stick used for stirring up the burning pyre, it will
itself in the end get destroyed.
 Then, there will arise Self-
realization.   [/b]
Arunachala Siva.

Salutations to Sri Ramana

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: David Godman Explains Death of mind
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2010, 05:10:49 PM »
Quote
When the expresser is still present, how can we talk about the Truth?
If expresser should not be present after Realization. Then u cannot have all these teachings.
Ramana who realized should have left immediately or vanished!
And that is what is being talked about. The Expresser need not be dismissed for Self Realization.
Even as a person playing role of a ravana, need not stop playing the role when he knows he is the one playing the role and not the role.
:)
I would care to check these details after (Self Realisation)

For now, I do not know. I am not a Jnani yet to say, what it would be like after Self Realisation. I would rather (see it myself) after the role of Ravana has ended. I would not speculate about it now. Whether Ramana should have left immediately or vanished - it does not matter to me, He has only asked us to focus on the 'I'. the rest is not in our hands as He says -

"All that you need to do is to find out its origin and abide there. Your efforts can extend only thus far. Then the Beyond will take care of itself. You are helpless there. No effort can reach it."

I would continue with enquiry. Whether the Expresser should be present or not present, I don't know now, as for now, as per the words of Bhagavan I continue to enquire Who am I (Expresser)

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: David Godman Explains Death of mind
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2010, 05:22:15 PM »
Dear I
Dear Nagaraj,
          :)
But what if the process of enquiry is itself mistaken ?

Love!
Silence

There is what is called 'Shraddha' or 'faith' When we drop our intelligence, we shall reach there (faster) than we imagine.

Sharanagati is inevitable, be it through Jnana Yoga, Bhakti Yoga, Raja Yoga or Karma Yoga.

We have to drop all our intelligence and stand stripped naked completely. Helplessly.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

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Re: David Godman Explains Death of mind
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2010, 05:34:11 PM »

Dear srkudai,

When one questions 'To whom the thought arises' the answer comes
as 'To me'.  If one asks Who am I?, as one progresses in self
inquiry, there will be no answer.  The mind would rest quietly
in the Self.  Hence, He said that it is like a stick that stirs the
funeral pyre.  It burns itself finally.

Arunachala Siva.       

Nagaraj

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Re: David Godman Explains Death of mind
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2010, 05:56:20 PM »
To my humble understanding, Shraddha is total abidance, faith is the closest word for it.

In Bhagavad Gita, Krishna says:

sarva-dharman parityajya
mam ekam saranam vraja
aham tvam sarva-papebhyo
moksayisyami ma sucah

Abandon all Dharmas and just surrender unto Me. I shall cleanse you from all sins and deliver onto your liberation.

No Vedanta is going to help us eventually, we have to drop it all. We have to surrender completely. Bhagavan attained freedom only through deep deep bhakti like those of Nayanmars and not even through Jnana.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 02:15:32 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: David Godman Explains Death of mind
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2010, 06:06:17 PM »
             :) Krishna said that in the 18th chapter. After saying everything else.
he did not say that first .

:) if Sraddha is just faith, then he should have just said this one line and thats it!
but he did not say.
he taught him 17 chapters. in the last chapter, one of the last few verses he says this!

Coz its not possible to surrender without understanding.
meanwhile Arjuna asks lots of questions.

Sraddha translates to proper openness or availability to questioning and finding out. open mind.

do you really see why sraddha is required? suppose i am realized and i want to teach a vaishnavite. he wont accept anything i say until and unless i tell him its vishnu. do u get this? that means he is not ready to put aside his pet ideas.
same with our own philosophies.

The reason so many people remain unenglightened even after hearing his verse is that they have not understood the true meaning. coz they have not systematically understood the previous verses. the preparation and availability is not there.

Thats precisely what I am telling, You can only drop intelligence after you acquire it. Even after being told all thee chapters. Krishna only asks him to surrender. We have to drop our intelligence some time or other.

As for why some people remain unenlightened even after hearing his verse ... etc... it is not of my concern. As far as I am concerned Bhagavan only asked us to focus on 'I' he never asked us to enquire why other people remain un enlightened.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

ramana_maharshi

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Re: David Godman Explains Death of mind
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2010, 06:40:55 PM »
Nice discussion.

udai garu,

I think nagraj garu is suggesting to follow Neti Neti method that we are not the mind,thought,intelligence....

Quote
Mano budhyahankara chithaa ninaham,
Na cha srothra jihwe na cha graana nethrer,
Na cha vyoma bhoomir na thejo na vayu,
Chidananada Roopa Shivoham, Shivoham.

Neither am I mind, nor intelligence , Nor ego, nor thought, Nor am I ears or the tongue or the nose or the eyes, Nor am I earth or sky or air or the light, I am Shiva, I am Shiva, of nature knowledge and bliss.

It is very important to have firm faith that we are not mind,thought,intelligence.... and consciousness only and there is really no need to kill/destroy them rather than to have firm faith that mind,thought,intelligence donot really affect us.

Ramana maharshi did not commit suicide when he had firm faith that he is not the body but used it as a tool to achieve his goal.

He always used to say "yes the body is paining but am i the body?"

Similarly we should say "yes i am having thoughts but am i the mind? " and suggesting to kill/destroying mind is not required.



Subramanian.R

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Re: David Godman Explains Death of mind
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2010, 10:52:40 AM »

Dear srkudai,

Bhagavan Ramana Himself had suggested that in case of self
inquiry becoming difficult [that is, the answers keep on coming
and the mind is not able to quell itself into the Self], He had
suggested that mantra would be equally fine.  He recommended
Siva, Siva to Muruganar and to another unknown Harijan.  When
someone asked whether he should shift from his Rama japa to
Ramana japa, He did not approve and said, Continue Rama Japa.

In this way, Arunachala Siva, Arunachala Siva, helps me to
quieten the mind and be in the state of Being for quite some
time.

Arunachala Siva.   

Subramanian.R

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Re: David Godman Explains Death of mind
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2010, 11:33:41 AM »

Dear srkudai,

As I posted elsewhere, the question answer method did not suit
me since answers kept on coming without end, and the mind did
not become quiet.  Whereas, the mantra [one thought replacing
all other thoughts, as Bhagavan Ramana said] helps me a lot
and my mind becomes quiet quickly.  I am happy that this was also
one of the methods suggested by Bhagavan Ramana to push the
mind into the Self.  I chant the mantra within me, and I "see" -
experience - Bhagavan or Arunachala within me.

When Dr. Syed asked once:

Dr. S:  If Arunachala be the Self, why should it be specially picked
up among so many other hills?  God is everywhere.  Why do you
specify Him as Arunachala?

Bhagavan:  What has attracted you from Allahabad to this place?

Dr. S:  Sri Bhagavan.

Bhagavan:  How was I attracted here?  By Arunachala.  The Power
cannot be denied.  Again Arunachala is within and without.  The
Self is Arunachala.


Arunachala Siva.

Nagaraj

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Re: David Godman Explains Death of mind
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2010, 12:20:24 PM »
Dear I,

Dear Nagaraj,
               :)
can you explain why acquire and drop ?
why acquire if at the end it has to be dropped ?

and if krishna dropped, how did he communicate it to Arjuna?

Ramana said find out "who am i" did he say "focus on I" ?

Instead of thinking about why to acquire and drop, pondering over why acquire it in first place if it has to be dropped, enquire who is the one to whom these thoughts are sprouting to?

It is unnecessary to know how Krishna communicated to Arjuna if Krishna dropped! enquire the one who is pondering thus!

Instead of pondering about what exactly Sri Ramana has said, whether he said find out 'who am I' or did he say 'focus on I'; enquire as to whom these two thoughts are coming to, as to who is the one pondering about what Sri Bhagavan actually meant!


Dear Subramanian,
             :) How about trying it my way, just now, just once ? Now.
not that my method is superior. but that, perhaps it might work, who knows?
what do you say ?
Not that you should stop chanting Arunachala Siva. Chanting Arunachala Siva is undoubtedly no less than the highest approach. its supreme.

I want you to try it for my experiement ;) --- i have the feeling that this should work for all.
want to verify that with you. Love! Silence

When you say:  
Quote
How about trying it my way, just now, just once ? Now.
not that my method is superior. but that, perhaps it might work, who knows?
what do you say ?

whose way are you talking about? who are you referring when you are saying "MY" and "YOU" to who are 'you' or who am I?

When you say:

Quote
"I want you to try it for my experiement  --- i have the feeling that this should work for all.want to verify that with you.

Who is the "I" in

Quote
"I want you to try it for my experiement


Who are you addressing to or referring to when you say "MY" in

Quote
"I want you to try it for my experiement


Who are you referring to when you say "ALL":

Quote
i have the feeling that this should work for all

Salutations to Sri Ramana
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 12:25:27 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: David Godman Explains Death of mind
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2010, 12:29:48 PM »
Dear I,

Dear Nagaraj,
                :)  Yes. But who has to enquire?
Please tell me one thing: you might have already enquired like this. why do u say u r still unrealized then ?
Love!
Silence

Whether I am realized or not, it is of no consequence! and the question "who has to enquire", you have to ask it to yourself !

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: David Godman Explains Death of mind
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2010, 12:31:33 PM »
'You' are not going to get an answer from 'me'
« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 12:33:10 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

ramanaduli

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Re: David Godman Explains Death of mind
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2010, 06:12:04 PM »
Dear Udai ji,

Who is doing pranam to whom?
Anyway it is very nice pic.


Ramanaduli



Subramanian.R

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Re: David Godman Explains Death of mind
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2010, 09:55:18 AM »

Dear Ramanaduli,

Advaita is full of such paradoxes.  Ribhu Gita asks:  How can
I circumabulate the Self within me, which is all expansive.
The Self is everywhere.  Where is the space to go around it,
and cirucmambulate or do namaskaram?

Arunachala Siva.