Author Topic: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?  (Read 22223 times)

Subramanian.R

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Re: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?
« Reply #30 on: July 07, 2010, 06:24:27 PM »
Dear srkudai,

1.  We cannot know the Jnani's state, because we are not Jnanis.

2.   Having realized the Self, He remained 'aloof' from the mind/body complex.  If He cried and moaned, it is like the body and mind staying aloof and crying and moaning.  But He felt it and that is why He never bluffed, but said 'I snored' and 'The body is paining.' As Bhagavan Ramana said all miseries and happiness including sexual pleasures, [See Kaduveli Siddhar's story] are like the Self having a reunion with the Jiva, for the sake of the world.

Dear prasanth,

It is not hypocrisy.  Suppose Advaita gives rope and snake
example, is the Self only a rope?  Isentient, unlike a living snake,
which is evolutionarily higher.  So the crying and chest beating
example is also be taken in that way.  It is all an act for the sake
of the world, not an act from one's mind and body.  

Please post to Narayanasami Iyer accordingly.

 

Arunachala Siva.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?
« Reply #31 on: July 07, 2010, 06:28:08 PM »

Dear Nagaraj,

Suddha Manas is a Saiva Siddhanta concept.  It is Unnamulai,
acting on behalf of Annamalai.  Muruganar also has used this
phrase.  You are correct.

It is the Suddha Manas which brought wonderful poetry from
Saint Manikkavachagar, Sri Sankara and Bhagavan Ramana.

Saiva Siddhantis also calls it Suddha Sivam.

Arunachala Siva.

Nagaraj

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Re: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?
« Reply #32 on: July 07, 2010, 06:36:26 PM »
Dear I,

ajya-dhärayä srotasä samam
sarala cintanaà viralataù param

Our Self enquiry should be like this verse from Upadesa Saaram - Like an unbroken flow of oil or a stream of water, continuous meditation is better than that which is interrupted. Focussing all our attention to the source from where the oil or Ghee is flowing from, and continuesly.

Constantly enquiring upon or holding on to the source of the Ganges(I), where from it is originating (Gangotri), Off course, as the Ganges flows, it gives out so many minerals, wealth, lives etc... our attention should only be at the source always, the source. Holding on to the Ganges (I) and enquiring its source - Gangotri - Self.

Salutations to Sri Ramana

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?
« Reply #33 on: July 07, 2010, 06:41:36 PM »
Dear I,
Dear Nagaraj,
        :) Obviously its mind which is saying this. who denies that?
and its mind which can hold onto "I" ... who else will hold onto "I"?
Self does not need to.
Mind cannot hold.
so what is this instruction "hold onto i" .it is not self inquiry.

You need not exit... please see: to continue like htis, to discontinue this --- to agree or disagree... none matter... Coz whether i type here or do not ... i have not really done anything as Self. ;)Love!
Silence

Talk 321
D.: What is unconditional surrender?
M.: If one surrenders oneself there will be no one to ask questions or
to be thought of. Either the thoughts are eliminated by holding on
to the root-thought ‘I’ or one surrenders oneself unconditionally to
the Higher Power. These are the only two ways for Realisation.

I want to ask you one question, Have you realised your Self?

Salutations to Sri Ramana
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 06:49:06 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

ramana_maharshi

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Re: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?
« Reply #34 on: July 07, 2010, 06:55:11 PM »
well said Subramanian garu.

Yes i will post him the same.

Quote
the mind body equipment undergoes its transformations in the presence of consciousness just as a bulb would glow and a fan would rotate in the presence of electricity.

I will agree with udai garu's above quote it is apt.

I also agree with nagraj garu's views where he eventually requesting us to do self enquiry like asking us to enquire Where from these thoughts are originating, where from the 'I' is originating.

But all i say is self enquiry is very much necessary only for IMPURE THOUGHTS.

As Guru Ramana says

Small desires such as the desire to eat, drink and sleep and attend to calls of nature, though these may also be classed among desires, you can safely satisfy. They will not implant vasanas in your mind, necessitating further birth. Those activities are just necessary to carry on life and are not likely to develop or leave behind vasanas or tendencies. As a general rule, therefore, there is no harm in satisfying a desire where the satisfaction will not lead to further desires by creating vasanas in the mind. (Day by Day with Bhagavan, 12th April, 1946)

Self Enquiry is not necessary for normal thoughts i.e idamkara vritti.





ramana_maharshi

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Re: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?
« Reply #35 on: July 07, 2010, 07:35:00 PM »
Udai Garu,

As Guru Ramana says,

When the indefinable power of Brahman separates itself from Brahman and, in union with the reflection of consciousness (Chidabhasa) assumes various forms, it is called the impure mind. When it becomes free from the reflection of consciousness (abhasa), through discrimination, it is called the pure mind.



Nagaraj

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Re: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?
« Reply #36 on: July 07, 2010, 07:46:33 PM »
Dear I,

I agree with this statetement:

Quote
Darshan is To See it oneself. When its conveyed, the one to whom its conveyed
is himself Self Realized!


.... and parallely, such a need would never arise!

nothing to add now... 'Silence'

Salutations to Sri Ramana
 
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

ramana_maharshi

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Re: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?
« Reply #37 on: July 07, 2010, 08:54:09 PM »
In Sri Sadasiva Brahmendra's Atma Vidya Vilasam Verse 16:

Quote
The Brahma Vidwarishta, is always in the bliss but only attending to his food and thirst, when called upon to do so.

So few basic thoughts are surely required for everyone and it is absolutely fine.

Small desires such as the desire to eat, drink and sleep and attend to calls of nature, though these may also be classed among desires, you can safely satisfy. They will not implant vasanas in your mind, necessitating further birth. Those activities are just necessary to carry on life and are not likely to develop or leave behind vasanas or tendencies. As a general rule, therefore, there is no harm in satisfying a desire where the satisfaction will not lead to further desires by creating vasanas in the mind. (Day by Day with Bhagavan, 12th April, 1946)



ramana_maharshi

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Re: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?
« Reply #38 on: July 07, 2010, 09:08:10 PM »
Dear Udai Garu,

Guru Ramana says,

Mind is two fold: there is the higher pure mind as well as the lower impure mind. The impure mind cannot know it but the pure mind knows. It does not mean that the pure mind measures the immeasurable Self, the Brahman.

It means that the Self makes itself felt in the pure mind so that even when you are in the midst of thoughts you feel the Presence, you realise the truth that you are one with the deeper Self and that the thought- waves are there only on the surface.

The mind gets clear of impurities and become pure enough to reflect the truth, the real Self.This is impossible when the ego is active and assertive hence destruction of the mind or of the ego we speak of is then not an absolute destruction.



DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?
« Reply #39 on: July 08, 2010, 09:21:21 AM »
In Viveka Chudamani Adi Sankara defined manonasa as destruction of Sankalpa(volition) and Vikalpa(doubt) character of the mind.All other functions of the mind are intact even after manonasa.
pvssnraju

viswanathan

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Re: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?
« Reply #40 on: July 08, 2010, 10:35:19 AM »


Quote
Small desires such as the desire to eat, drink and sleep and attend to calls of nature, though these may also be classed among desires, you can safely satisfy. They will not implant vasanas in your mind, necessitating further birth. Those activities are just necessary to carry on life and are not likely to develop or leave behind vasanas or tendencies. As a general rule, therefore, there is no harm in satisfying a desire where the satisfaction will not lead to further desires by creating vasanas in the mind. (Day by Day with Bhagavan, 12th April, 1946)

Dear Mr.Prasanth,
                         You have given an excellent explanation about mind..After reading Bhagavan's works, many devotees may have a genuine doubt that  if the mind is killed ,then how can a person  recognize objects, bring back his  experiences .As you rightly mentioned the  thought of hunger,thirst,sleep are necessary for our living and these thoughts do not create vasanas.What is to be noted is that thought by  itself is not a problem and the problem starts if we  we brood over thoughts. Manonasam pertains to killing of those thoughts on which we brood over.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?
« Reply #41 on: July 08, 2010, 12:35:19 PM »

Dear viswanthan,

Sri Viveka Chudamani says:  Vasana kshayam moksham.  The
vasanas are embedded in the mind as small dots of crystals.
They jump out as thoughts.  Even these vasanas should be
cleaned up for liberation.  Bhagavan Ramana says while conferring
liberation to His Mother, that the vasanas were whirling around her
mind and even these had to be curtailed by quickly enacting the
required thoughts and actions for those vasanas in mental plane.

Now for all of you, I am asking a question:   If the mind were not to
be killed, why should Bhagavan Ramana says in Who am I? - the
word Mano nasam.  He uses two words mana-adakkam [controlling
of the mind] and mano nasam [killing of the mind].  What is the
reason for distinguishing between the two and why the phrase
mano nasam?

Arunachala Siva.

viswanathan

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Re: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?
« Reply #42 on: July 08, 2010, 01:19:05 PM »

Dear viswanthan,


Now for all of you, I am asking a question:   If the mind were not to
be killed, why should Bhagavan Ramana says in Who am I? - the
word Mano nasam.  He uses two words mana-adakkam [controlling
of the mind] and mano nasam [killing of the mind].  What is the
reason for distinguishing between the two and why the phrase
mano nasam?

Arunachala Siva.


Dear Subramanaian,
                         In Sri Ramana Noorrirattu,under the chapter NaanYar , Bhagaan repeatedly uses the word Mana adakkam and I do not find the word mano nasam(killing of mind) anywhere.I consider the original Tamil version  Nan yar as gospel..Probability, when Naan Yar was translated in English/sanskrit, the word mano nasam has been  introduced.This is the problem with translation of original tamil works of Bhagaan in other languages.As per Mr.Gangolli,in his video interview wide <http://conscious-websites.com/blueprints/low/popup/gangolli/gangolli6.html> ,he says that mano nasam is not the appropriate word and mano nigraham is the proper word because the mind itself is non existence apart from Self and if so where is the question killing  of  non existence thing. If you go through the English translation of Naan yar by Mr.Michel james whom i have highest regard,he uses the word mano nigraham only and not mano nasam and his transalion of Naan yar is reproduced below in italics.

PARAGRAPH SIXTEEN
Since in every [true spiritual] treatise it is said that for attaining mukti [spiritual emancipation, liberation or salvation] it is necessary [for us] to restrain [our] mind, after knowing that mano-nigraha [holding down, holding within, restraining, subduing, suppressing or destroying our mind] is the ultimate intention [or purpose] of [such] treatises, there is no benefit [to be gained] by studying without limit [a countless number of] treatises. For restraining [our] mind it is necessary [for us] to investigate ourself [in order to know] who [we really are], [but] instead [of doing so] how [can we know ourself by] investigating in treatises?



ramana_maharshi

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Re: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?
« Reply #43 on: July 08, 2010, 01:44:44 PM »
Thanks a lot for this information viswanathan garu.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?
« Reply #44 on: July 08, 2010, 02:34:53 PM »
Dear viswanathan,

Bhagavan Ramana says in His answer to Question 12:

While describing pranayama etc.,

There, pranayama shall only be an aid to control the mind
and will not do "mano-nasam"


Again the next paragraph for the same question, He says:

Like pranayama, moorti dhayanam, mantra japam, ahara-niyamam - all these shall be only aids to control the mind.

Regarding thoughts, while answering Question 12, He says:

 As long as there are vishaya-vasanas, so long, there
should be self enuquiry.  As and when thoughts occur, there and then
one should crush them through vichara.


About mano-nigraham [nigraham = punishing or killing], He says
in answer to Question 23:

 Since every book says that for mukti, one should control
the mind [mana adakkam] and mano-nigraham is the final conclusion
of all books.


In answer to Q 13, He says about thoughts-killing:

 As Swarupa dhyanam starts, all thoughts will be killed.

Arunachala Siva.