Author Topic: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?  (Read 18155 times)

srkudai

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Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?
« on: July 06, 2010, 12:28:20 PM »
Thoughts or no thoughts, how does it matter? Thoughts , whether they appear or not, are mithya.
People who try to stop shadows from appearing or who try to perpetuate shadows ... both are equally mistaken.
shadows are shadows, how does it matter whether they exist or not.
ultimately i alone am!


Yoga Vasishtam says :

Quote

King Parigha asked king Suraghu as follows: "Are you established in the state of supreme pace in which no thoughts or notions arise in your mind which is known as samadhi?"

and Suraghu replied: Holy sir, please tell me why only the state of mind which is free from thoughts and notions is called samadhi? if one is a knower of truth whether he is engaged in constant action or in contemplation... there is only Samadhi.


Love!
Silence

ramana_maharshi

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Re: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2010, 01:12:41 PM »
well said udai garu.

Nagaraj

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Re: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?
« Reply #2 on: July 07, 2010, 11:30:13 AM »
That thoughts, whether they appear or not, are mithya, and shadows, whether they exist or not... and as consciousness, they do not affect the I, which is alone... is knowledge.

As consciousness, Mithya, or shadow, if they still appear, doesn't matter if it does not affect the consciousness, one needs to enquire to whom these knowledge are perceived, who is the 'I' ....

Enquiry into 'I' need continue so long, there is even knowledge as well. That, the shadows, or Mithyas do not affect the consciousness is just knowledge, and knowledge to whom? who is the 'I' who has this knowledge that it does not matter, if there are thoughts or no thoughts, whether there are shadows or not...

The 'I' has to merge completely.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?
« Reply #3 on: July 07, 2010, 01:46:38 PM »
Dear I,

I am purely talking from the Self enquiry as graced by Ramana. I am holding on to 'I' each and every moment as much as possible. Though intellecctually, I agree to each and all points mentioned here and all other posts, but after agreement, holding on to 'I' as Bhagavan points to us, to whom are all there Samadhi - Savikalpa, Nirvikalpa, etc... belong? Is not the mind still alive there?

Mind is absorbed completely in Nirvikalpa, there is no 'I' then. But 'I' am still here, grasping all these knowledges. Who am I, Who am I...

I am just replying purely from holding on to the 'I' ... who am I ...

That I has to be enquired till it merges into Self, where there is absolutely no trace of 'I' popping up to own all knowledges.

Simply holding on to 'I' each and every moment...

each moment, any knowledge is revealed - be it TRUE, or whatever, be it even the golden words of Sri Ramana, still, I persistently continue holding on the 'I' Who am I to whom all these are known. Who is the Knower afterall, HE has to be enquired, in each and every moment till it ceases, untill then anything that comes about in between, just hold on to that knower, that has to merge... it absolutely doesn't matter what is the matter that the knower has known - be it the knowledge 'I AM BRAHMAN', 'THERE IS NO SHADOW', 'THERE IS NO IGNORANCE'... ETC...

Who am I...

Holding on to 'I' until its death (which it will not know) is the aim.

Neti Neti, who am I, Neti Neti, who am I

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2010, 02:36:51 PM »
Dear I,
The simplest question is: if there are no thoughts how did he speak and function?
thoughts are there and yet, from point of view of consciousness, consciousness never has thoughs.
when ramana said "i do not have thoughts", it simply means, he as consciousness has no thoughts. The thoughts were mithya.
and when he said "i am hungry" , he was speaking from relative perspective.

the relative perspective of "I" is unavoidable. IF you read Ramana's life, do you know that Ramana was moaning and calling due to pain in his later days? How can a Jnani suffer pain and moan and cry in it?

If you ask him ... while he is crying ... he will say "I am not crying". Coz he is not the body there and then.
Infact, this holding onto a state of mind is bondage. coz i am not the mind!
holding onto "I" is bondage. coz if u r that "I" ... why hold onto and who holds onto ???

A Jnani does not "Try" to change anything.
Jnani just understands he is Truth. There it ends. All this remains as Mithya as long as it should.
and it ends later with videnha mukthi. that does not change him... coz he as consciousness is ever free of all this game.

The answer to your question:

1 He spoke and functioned within you and not externally. It is all only mind created. there is nothing apart externally from mind. External world is simply creation of Mind alone.

2 Thoughts are only there when there is mind or you. otherwise there is no mind.

3 When "Ramana said I do not have thoughts" it simply means he as consciousness has not thoughts - is what the mind has come to conclusion. But who am I? we need to ask this. What Ramana means what scriptures mean, what I say, what you say, all is only the product of the mind alone.

4 All the realtive perspectives of "I" that it is unavoidable is all just the conclusions of mind. we just need to question who am I, o mind...

5 Every thing, asking him if he is crying and his response that He is not crying etc... is all happening only in our mind alone... -we need to enquire O Mind Who are you or who am I?

6 Holding on to 'I' - if it is bondage, who is the knower? bhagavan asks to first find out who is the knower that it is bondage holding on to I

It is all just conclusion of mind that Jnani does not try to change things, that jnani  just undertands the truth, etc....

Who am I?

Who is it, to whom all these belong? That needs to be enquired.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 02:38:31 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2010, 02:40:40 PM »
There is no

Your understanding or
My understanding....

There is just 'understanding' alone which is nothing but the mind.

Your understanding is mine and my understanding is yours.

There is only Mind alone. There is only I....

Who am I..

 
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

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Re: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2010, 02:55:11 PM »
Dear srkudai, Nagaraj,

Okay.  Let us see what Muruganar says in GVK, where every verse
has been read and corrected if necessary, by Bhagavan Ramana.

Thought-free thought State:

Verse 203:  You should be firmly convinced that the authentic
Siva puja is the state of profound peace in which, through thought-
free thought, one remains habitually and inseparably in harmony
with the Atma Swarupam.

Mind is totally free of thoughts:

Verse 454:  In the deluded existence of living as the ignorant
ego, the tainted understanding that is caused by the contracted
and shrunken consciousness which is the mind, is there anyone
who has true happiness, replete with the unique light of Jnana, in
which the mind is totally free of thoughts?  Answer me!


Arunachala Siva.  
  

Subramanian.R

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Re: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2010, 03:03:46 PM »

Dear srkudai, Nagaraj,

Muruganar further says in GVK:


Remaining in thought-free state:

Verse 472:  To abide in Swarupam, [one's true nature] is to cease
to exist as a slave.  It is to remain without even the rising of the
thought 'I am a slave'.  It is egoless mauna, utterly still, having
no mental movements.  The unlimited consciousness that shines
is the true consciousness.

Verse 473:  God abides in the heart of everyone, as the Heart,
silently enabling his mere presence, all the things that should be done for everyone in the way that that have been ordained.  If we
therefore also remain in our Source, the Heart, thought-free and
without slipping from it, and merged with his Swarupam that is
also the Heart, whatever is to happen to us will happen without
any impediment.

Bhagavan Ramana also says in the first benedictory verse of
ULLadu Narpadu:

As reality exists free of thought, in the Heart, reality is termed
'the Heart' [ULLam]


Arunachala Siva.
     

Subramanian.R

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Re: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?
« Reply #8 on: July 07, 2010, 03:14:42 PM »
Dear srkudai, prasanth,

Muruganar says in a few more verses about the ultimate goal
of Vedas:-



The Ultimate Goal of Vedas:

Verse 751:  The thought-free state of clarity, full of unassailable
peace, is alone the ultimate goal proclaimed by the Vedas, as being the fruit of tapas.  Therefore, even if you were to attain
extensive and immeasurable fortunes as the result of tapas,
if you still experience even a trace of mental disquiet, then renounce that tapas or the fortune.

Verse 754:  Far superior to the powerful siddhi, which enables you to attain everything that you think in the way
that you desire, is the state, full of peace of the Heart, that is
attained by getting firmly established in the being-consciousness, where in not even a single thought arises.

Verse 756: Other than superior atma-vichara [self enquiry],
there exist no other spiritual practices that are capable of quelling the mind.  If the mind is subjugated by other methods, it will
appear to have subsided, but it will revive and rise again.


Arunachala Siva.  

Nagaraj

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Re: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2010, 03:17:55 PM »
Dear I, (addressing both, Sri Udai, and Sri Subramanian)

Who am I to you, who are all the people to you? Let me write it this way, as in asking ourselves:

Who is srkudai, who is subamanian and who am I? let me come to myself later, first who are srkudai and subramanian? they are persons just like me? if they are like me, then who am I? shouldn't I know myself first before knowing srkudai and subramanian?

Ok, now, srkudai and subramanian are persons like me, then where are they? srkudai is in Hyderabad and subramanian is in bangalore. hyderabad and bangaalore are only places where they are living, but who are they?

Now,  let me, bring in the story from Ribhu Gita, presuming that both of you are aware about this story, I am only quting the revelant incident that happens in the story:

The question is,
How is that there is no your mind or my mind and that there is only mind alone.

After the passage of another thousand celestial years, Ribhu again went to the place where Nidagha dwelled. On that occasion, Ribhu, who had put on the disguise of a village rustic, found Nidagha intently watching a royal procession. Unrecognised bu the town-dweller, Nidagha, the village rustic inquired as to what the bustle was all about and was told that the King was going in procession.


"Oh, It is the king . He goes in procession! But where is he?" asked the rustic.

Where is srkudai or subramanian? (each of ou could exchange my name to your names)


"There, on the elephant," said Nidagha.

=>in Forum, or in hyderabad/bangalore - take it any way


"You say that the king is on the elephant. Yes, I see the two," said the rustic, "but which is the king and which is the elephant?"

I see srkuai/subramanian and hyderabad/bangalore or forum


"What!" exclaimed Nidagha. "You see two, but do not know that the man above is the King and the animal below is the elephant? What is the use of talking to a man like you?"


"Pray, be not impatient with an ignorant man like me,"begged thge rustic, "but you said 'above' and 'below' What do they mean?"


Nidagha could stand it no more, "You see the king and the elephant, the one above and the other below. Yet you want to know what is meant by 'above' and 'below'?" burst out Nidagha. "If things seen and words spoken can convey so little to youm action alone can teach you. Bend forward, and you will know it all too well."

similarly, we think like Nidagha that you are here in forum or hyderabad or bangalore as the case may be.


The rustic did as he was told. Nidagha got on his shoulders and said, "Know it now. I am above as the king, and you are below as the elephant. Is that clear enough?"


"No, not yet." was the rustic's quiet reply. "You say that you are like the king, and I am below like the elephnat. The 'king,' the elephant.' 'above,' 'below' - so far it is clear. But pray tell me what you mean by 'I' and 'you'?"

=> your mind and my mind.


When Nidagha was confronted all of a sudden with the mighty problem of defining the "you" apart from the "I," light dawned on his mind.

Can there be your mind and my mind? Arent you - srkudai/subramanian I -mind, can you/your mind/I exist apart from I?

At once, he jumped down and fell at his Masters's feet, saying, "Who else but my venerable Master, Ribhu, could have thus drawn my mind from the superficialities of physocal existence to the true Being of the Self? O benign Master, I crave your blessings."

The person upon the person as elephant and king or srkudai or subramanian and forum, hyderabad/bangalore is one and the same. It is the same I that is king, the same I that is elephant the same I that is srkudai, the same I that is subramanian.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 03:21:11 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

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Re: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?
« Reply #10 on: July 07, 2010, 03:24:07 PM »
Dear srkudai, Nagaraj,

Muruganar further says in GVK, about the mind ceasing to function:



Mind ceasing to function as thought:

Verse 924:  I affirm that, even when the mind ceases to function
as thought, Being assuredly exists. That Being abides forever
as the temple of consciousness-bliss even though it apparently
comes into existence at a favorable moment, prior to which it
apparently remains concealed.

Verse 924 (alternate):

I declare that even when the mind, in the form of thoughts,
ceases to function, something remains.  That something  
is the Reality.  Manifesting as Time, it operates in a hidden
way, abiding as the temple of consciousness-bliss.

Verse 925:  "Now and then'; "that which is and that which is not";
"here and there":  A mind that is without even a trace of such thoughts, and which shines as the eternal, the one fully present
everywhere is indeed pure Sivam.


Arunachala Siva.

Nagaraj

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Re: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?
« Reply #11 on: July 07, 2010, 03:32:57 PM »
Dear I,

addressing all of you as I,

Dear Subramanian,
          :) The question i have is Why is Muruganar saying something different from Yoga Vasishtam / Tripura Rahasyam!

Love!
Silence

Truth, is always different from what ever read from any books or by word of mouth. ultimately, knowledge has to be over come as well. all knowledge is only the product of mind. But the reality is the substratum of all knowledges and all truth's put together.

Ramana says, get beyond even these understandings, abiding as the substratum of all understanding.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?
« Reply #12 on: July 07, 2010, 03:41:04 PM »
Mind is just a conglomerate of all minds (imagined minds)  put together. There is no your mind or my mind.

Its only my mind that even defines the so called 'your mind' as well. and vice versa.
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?
« Reply #13 on: July 07, 2010, 03:46:26 PM »
There is no going in reality.

The only agenda of the mind is to get clarity, which is impossible.

For the mind, the reality of substratum can never be defined or understood, which the mind does not want to accept, it always tries to fill the unlimited into limited.

There is no answer to your question, Dear I, that's the honest reflection. Instead, what Bhagavan says is to find out the source of this Mind.

There is no use clearing doubts, doubts will keep arising one after the other. It is wise therefore to enquire the doubter.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
« Last Edit: July 07, 2010, 03:50:15 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Why is thoughtlessness samadhi ?
« Reply #14 on: July 07, 2010, 03:49:15 PM »
When body itself is mind, how can there be your body or my body or only Body?

There is only Mind. period.
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta