Author Topic: Discussion: Is it necessary to kill/destroy the mind to achieve Self-Realisation  (Read 6136 times)

ramana_maharshi

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This is one most confused aspect in understanding bhagavan's teachings atleast to me till recently.

What does bhagavan really meant by Killing/Destroying the mind?

Few questions:

a) Is it really necessary for us to kill our mind to achieve self-realisation?
b) How long can/should a person really stay in turiya(wakeful sleep) state?
c) If our teeth bite our tongue do we suggest to remove the teeth so that all problems will be solved? :-)

Or Do you think Killing/Destroying the mind means we need to achieve something called "Suddha Manas" which means "pure mind" where our ego gets killed as far as possible and not have 'i am the doer' attitude and try to live a simple/modest life having not much desires?

I would love to see participation by every member as it will be help to understand better of what bhagavan really meant.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 03:24:39 PM by prasanth_ramana_maharshi »

ramanaduli

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Bhagavan whatever uttered all words are truth, truth, nothing is there other than truth. The doubts are all arising due to our impurity of our mind. I think long time ago I asked the same type of question. Udai ji and Subramaniyan ji gave nice answers. So far I understood that, let the mind play its own drama. Nothing can touch "I". At first we must have this conviction. We are taking a part in a drama i.e. actors. Without forgeting the real we have to play the role. If we pay attention and identify or give energy to our thougts it is problem. This lines are helping me lots and lots. We cannot kill/drestroy the mind. If we do not pay attention it will not affect us. I learnt this from this forum which helps me to face the day to day problems.
Once again I thank to Bhagavan for showing this forum.

Ramanaduli

Nagaraj

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a) Is it really necessary for us to kill our mind to achieve self-realisation?

The mind that we propose to kill, is just as good as a rope mistaken for a snake. The person who contemplates to either kill or not kill is as good as a Self mistaken for a rope.

b) How long can/should a person really stay in turiya(wakeful sleep) state?

The moment one is 'said to be' in 'Turiya' as it is Akala, beyond the realms for time. It is timeless, who is there to perceive how much time has passed by? So long one is able to perceive that he is in Turiya state and keeps a check of how much time has passed, know that it is not Turiya and the mind has still not merged with Self.

c) If our teeth bite our tongue do we suggest to remove the teeth so that all problems will be solved? :-)

The Teeth biting the tongue - Neither the teeth nor the tongue complains, The one which bites (Teeth) and the one which is hurt (Tongue) is not botherd. It is only the 'I' that reacts. Who are we to decide to remove the teeth? the tongue and teeth would say, mind your business, first you find out who you are and then you come and decide what to do with us - tongue and teeth.

Who are you? Who am I? Please enquire and give possible answers!

Salutations to Sri Ramana
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 05:20:49 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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In this discussion, the fundamental question would be:

1.   Who are you   

and

2.   Who is Mind

Q - Are you different from your Mind?
A - No, you are not then Why should Mind trouble us?
Q - Are you the Mind itsef?
A - Yes so long you are enquiring for Self

Why this whole problem is arising? because of the wrong notion that there is "mind" and there is "me" Is mind got powers of its own that it can control us? No, Mind is inert, Mind is not differnt from me! Then if Mind is not different from me, then who am I? I must be the mind itself, So I am the Mind, Who am I troubling then? I am troubling myself, Mind am I, the lesser Self.

Is there another Pure Self apart from this I, I am talking about? No there cannot be. This Mind which I am talking about is given existence because of me, I am the one that gives it life by  thinking. WHo am I? Who am I?

Where from This I is originating? enquire, enquire, enquire,

This 'I' this false I this limited I, this Mind is actually naught.

Without Mind who could I be? the limited I asks, The limited I again through Jnana, Viveka, and through grace of Guru, realises its real nature, of Silence, Mauna, Nirvikalpa, the consciousness whic is the source of all I.

When ever the Mind I comes up, your self, through the grace of consciousness, not letting it go out, and putting it under the divine prison of Self, the false I merges with Itself.

Its verily like an actor who is addicted to acting, every now and then begins to put different 'vesha' or characeters and begins to go out from Self. Each time this desire originates, just stopping yourself from putting a new 'vesha' - that discrimination is the consciousness.

There is no mind, different from I,  the Mind, I, and Self are all one and the same. ]

Mind is as good as the Snake in Rope and Snake.

and the Consciousness is neither Rope nor Snake.

Consciousness

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

silentgreen

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This is my opinion. Not directly addressing the questions head-on, but as an envelope.

Spirituality is often approached in a negative way, i.e. just remove the obstacles and self will shine on its own accord. This is logical and as per our nature. However I have not got much benefit from this approach. I found benefit from the positive approach. Inculcate devotion for God, invoke the self directly by japa, prayer, meditation and enquiry without thinking of impurities of the mind etc. Once the positive emerges from within, there is no need to bother about mind control etc.

Somehow secure joy from within. Somehow get hold of the deeper expanse of the self. Do not bother whether some imaginations are involved or not. Do not bother about mithya, delusion etc too much. Once the inner expanse and joy is felt it is easy to give up all worldly habits and replace them with spiritual habits. If we are very true to our inner feedback (inner guru), it always takes us towards the right path. There is no need of any mind destruction, not even understanding what is the meaning of mind destruction; because once the inner expanse is felt, mind out of its own accord will try to go towards the source of inner bliss and thus gets automatically tamed.

One important thing is to progressively make life simpler. Due to various reasons (not all due to us but may be because of family members) worldly routines start entering our life in small steps and quite secretly. It is better to be aware of all this. Eliminate and not accumulate.
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

Nagaraj

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Dear I,

Those are very wise words...

Absolutely Correct and very True! all your observations.

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Ultimately, Bhakthi and Jnana are just one and the same,

Bhakti yoga is to absolutely not bother about all these whether they are illusions, about consciousness, etc.. and just remain at the Lotus feet of Lord abiding which is abiding as Self

Jnana Yoga is realising the truth of all these - illusions and maya and then just remaining as pure Self where all the external phenomenon cease to affect one
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

ramana_maharshi

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Dear all,

Thanks for all your inputs.

I agree with  ramanaduli garu statement that  "If we do not pay attention it will not affect us."

I agree with  udai garu statement that "Samadhi is to dismiss mind." and "To ignore is to pay no attention. thoughts come and go. you remain mind turned inwards towards the Self."

I agree with nagraj garu statement that  "There is no mind, different from I,  the Mind, I, and Self are all one and the same."

I agree with silent green statement that  "Once the positive emerges from within, there is no need to bother about mind control etc."

Sri Sundara Chaitanya Swami says Mano Nasam means only destruction of ignorance in the mind but not destruction of mind.

Sri Tyagaraja swami says in one of his songs,

kalpana lenni kalavaadee maa raamudu
sankalpam leni vaade maa raamudu.


Which means So there is nothing wrong in having thoughts but it is important not to have sankalpas.

If we want to know nature of pot there is no need to break the pot.

Sri Sundara Chaitanya Swami says there is no need to stop waves to understand about ocean.

Waves are not independent of ocean but are only part of ocean.

As there is no need to stop the waves similarly there is no need to kill the mind to know our nature i.e sat-chit-ananda.

Problem is though we are satyam(truth) i.e ocean in the above example we think we are mithya(waves) and start thinking of all the problems of waves as we compare ourselves with waves and then we start trying to solve our problems related to waves.

Here waves relate to mind and our nature is ocean on which everything(mind,indriyas..) is dependent.

If really problems solve by killing our mind then it can be solved by taking some injection like anaesthesia. :-)

So solution is to know that we are not the mind and it is mithya i.e dependent on our real naturre i.e sat-chit-ananda.

Nagaraj

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Dear I,

I would like to add just one more.

So solution is to know that we are not the mind and it is mithya i.e dependent on our real naturre i.e sat-chit-ananda.

The very first step and the only Step (which implies Absolute Sharanagati or Absolute Jnana), is to stop looking for a solution at all. This itself is the very problem. Solution itself is Mithya. For whom is solution required? If you look in and see, you will find that its only a Mithya that has been looking for a solution.

Trying to define Mithya or Asat or Illusion or Maya is trying to give some value for zero or infinity.

No Solution is required, Nothing need change. Truth is perfect as It Is.

The Sage says, Reliase this Truth and be at Peace.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
« Last Edit: June 21, 2010, 06:42:01 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

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I agree with silengreen (Reply #6).  If the mind is not there, why
should Bhagavan Ramana use the word 'mano-nasa'?  In fact, He
talks about two things.  Mana adakkam (mind control) and mano-nasa (destruction of the mind).  Here one can take it as Ego, if he is
not comfortable with the use of Mind. Because Bhagavan Ramana has
said about Ego or Ahandai in Tamil, in many places in His ULLadu
Narpadu:

1.  First, He uses it in Verse 2 of the main text.  Here He says
ahankaram.

2. He mentions it again in Verse 26, where He says if Ego rises,
everything rises, since ego is everything.  One should investigate,
as to what is this ego, this is the self enquiry.

3. Further He uses the word Ahandai, Ego, in Verse 28.  This verse
speaks of the sadhanam.  One should investigate the place from
where the ego rises, as one dives into a water body to find out the
article that had fallen.

4. Finally in Verse 40, He says, that the destruction of this ahandai,
ego, is liberation.

Muruganar in his Guru Vachaka Kovai, which is an exposition of
Bhagavan's teachings in an elaborate manner, mentions about
ego, mind, ego-destruction, mind-destruction, dead mind etc.,
in about 85 verses. 

Arunachala Siva. 

ramana_maharshi

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Well said Subramanian garu.

Ego is the culprit and it should get eradicated as far as possible.

As Guru ramana says complete eradication of ego is indeed not possible even in the case of Kannappar himself.


Subramanian.R

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Dear prasanth,

I think, if my memory is correct, Kannappar referred to by Bhagavan
Ramana is not the Saint Kannappar the hunter, who gave his eyes
to Siva in Kalahasti.  This Kannappar is a devotee who came to meet
Him and showed a lot of upanishadic knowledge by way of long talk
and who finally said that 'I have still not realized the Self'.

Arunachala Siva.

ramana_maharshi

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Dear Subramanian Garu,

Kannappar bhagavan ramana mentioned is the hunter kanappar only who gave his eyes to lord siva.

In GURU VACHAKA KOVAI it is written as below

Quote
The complete eradication of the ego is indeed very hard when even in the case of Kannappa, whose love for Lord Shiva was so great that he plucked out his own eyes and planted them on the Lord’s face, there remained [until that moment] a trace of body attachment [i.e. ego] in the form of his pride concerning his beautiful bright eyes.

Lord Shiva tested Kannappa by making him offer even his treasured and enviable eyes to the Lord. Thus even his slight attachment to his body was removed and he was absorbed in Shiva. As this information about Kannappa’s attachment to his beautiful eyes was not revealed by the Puranas, but only by Sri Bhagavan Ramana, we can infer that He is none other than Shiva, who faced Kannappa at that time.



Subramanian.R

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Dear prasanth,

I am sorry.  You are correct.

Arunachala Siva.

ramana_maharshi

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Dear Subramanian Garu,

That shows how much humble and simple person you are sir.

Humility is very much required in our sadhana and we all are part of bhagavan's family and one and the same.

Indeed main purpose of this forum i feel is to help us to iradicate ignorance in us by helping each other.