Author Topic: Ramana Maharshi says to see god in other external objects is not real  (Read 15337 times)

ramanaduli

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 851
    • View Profile
Re: Ramana Maharshi says to see god in other external objects is not real
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2010, 01:37:31 AM »
If it is difficult to find out what is mithya, let us find out which is nithya or true. At least we would not go out of our way. ( That you are)




Ramanaduli

silentgreen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 757
    • View Profile
Re: Ramana Maharshi says to see god in other external objects is not real
« Reply #31 on: June 18, 2010, 08:18:46 AM »
In a dream state you are likely to have dream realisation only...mithya.

A person goes to dream and after waking up says that he met a sage, did penance and became self-realised. His wife congratulates him and prints a certificate for the dream realisation. The wife encourages him to get some more certificates in future. That way her husband's ascetic tendencies will be satisfied and he will not leave her. The person said that with proper orientation of the mind he will try to get some more realisations in future dreams.

If this present world is exactly like the dream world, many of us are likely to get dream certificates, may be more than one.
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Ramana Maharshi says to see god in other external objects is not real
« Reply #32 on: June 18, 2010, 10:09:23 AM »
Really, subconsciously, most of the spiritual aspirants, even though they may not even be associated with "these" organisations which give enlightenment certificates, they still get caught in Self Realisation, trying to become "Something" which is endless.

Its simply wisdom. It is our nature. Instead we try, try and keep trying....

Sharanagati, thats the best way, Giving up. Just be.

All else will happen. So what for us, the real Self. why to analyse them, everything is perfect and happening perfectly.

quiescence of mind is our nature. Where nothing raises up. whenever 'I' raises up, just get it back in to Self.

The Self being tutor, watchman, police to Self itself. Let not the 'I' escape out. Let it be in the divine prison and let it get merged with Self.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47716
    • View Profile
Re: Ramana Maharshi says to see god in other external objects is not real
« Reply #33 on: June 18, 2010, 10:13:03 AM »
Bhagavan Ramana said:

1. The Real is only Atma Swarupam.  The world, jiva and Iswara
(personal god) are all imaginations.  All the three appear and
disappear simultaneously.  Answer to the Question 16 of M.S. Pillai.
(First Part)

Bhagavan Ramana then proceeds to write the second part:

2. Where there is no I-thought even for a trice, is Swarupam.
That is also called Maunam.  Swarupam is the world, Swarupam
is I.  Swarupam is Iswara.  All are Siva Swarupam.

So, Arunachala is only a Hill, when one has got I thought.  When
there is no I thought, where there is total silence, it is Swarupam.

So Aruna Hill appears both ways to a person and a Brahma Jnani.

The same will apply to pot and mud and snake and rope too.
When a person looks at the pot, it is pot.  When a person looks
at the rope, firs it is snake only.  When the 'true knowledge' is
attained, they are mud and rope respectively.

Arunachala Siva.

silentgreen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 757
    • View Profile
Re: Ramana Maharshi says to see god in other external objects is not real
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2010, 10:44:42 AM »
Let us end this discussion with the following saying of Sri Ramakrishna:

It is the unwavering conviction of the jnani that Brahman alone is real and the world illusory. All these names and forms are illusory, like a dream. What Brahman is cannot be described. One cannot even say that Brahman is a Person. This is the opinion of the jnanis, the followers of Vedanta philosophy. But the bhaktas accept all the sates of consciousness. They take the waking state to be real also. They don't think the world to be illusory, like a dream. They say that the universe is a manifestation of God's power and glory. God has created all these -- sky, stars, moon, sun, mountains, ocean, men, and animals. They constitute His glory. He is within us, in our hearts. Again, He is outside. The most advanced devotees say that He Himself has become all this -- the twenty-four cosmic principles, the universe, and all living beings. The devotee of God wants to eat the sugar, and not to become the sugar.
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

ramana_maharshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3557
    • View Profile
Re: Ramana Maharshi says to see god in other external objects is not real
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2010, 01:58:23 PM »
Quote
The devotee of God wants to eat the sugar, and not to become the sugar.

This is one difference between ramakrishna and ramana maharshi.

Quote
In day-by-day bhagavan tells

They hold that they must exist and God must exist, but how is that possible? It seems that they must all remain for ever doing service in Vaikunta, but how many of them are to do service and where would there be room for all these Vaishnavites?”

Bhagavan said this laughing, and then, after a pause, he added, “On the other hand, Advaita does not mean that a man must always sit in samadhi and never engage in action. Many things are necessary to keep up the life of the body, and action can never be avoided. Nor is bhakti ruled out in Advaita.

Shankara is rightly regarded as the foremost exponent of Advaita, and yet look at the number of shrines he visited (action), and the devotional songs he wrote.”

Anyhow as i said earlier there are N number of school of thoughts in Indian Philosphy where each school tells that their philosphy is best and perfect.

It depends on our nature to choose one school and follow their teachings.

Few famous schools In Indian Philosphy

a) advaita   (adi sankara,ramana maharshi,sri sundara chaitanya swami...)
b) dvaita   ( iscon and in general vaishnavaites)
c) Vishishtadvaita  (  Ramanuja)
d) Dvaitadvaita  ( Nimbarka)
e) Buddhist philosophy
f) Raja Yoga  ( Yoga Sutras of Patanjali)
g) Samkhya  ( Sage Kapila)
h) Cārvāka ( Madhavacharya)  (Carvaka believed there was no afterlife, no life after death)

.... still there are totally atleast > 25 schools

« Last Edit: June 18, 2010, 03:02:46 PM by prasanth_ramana_maharshi »

silentgreen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 757
    • View Profile
Re: Ramana Maharshi says to see god in other external objects is not real
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2010, 05:46:43 PM »
The life of Sri Ramakrishna is a combination of jnana and ecstatic devotion.
Sri Ramakrishna is perhaps the only saint who has worshipped so many Gods and Goddesses together with such a great intensity of devotion and at the same time pursued advaita sadhana. The knowledge of advaita did not reduce the ecstatic bhakti of Sri Ramakrishna. As he was a child of the Divine Mother, so he remained as her child only. Sri Ramakrishna's devotion for Sri Krishna reached the height of Mahabhava, the highest devotional stage of Bhakti mentioned in the Vaishnava literature. It is said that Sri Radha, Sri Chaitanya and Sri Ramakrishna are the only three who has reached the Mahabhava. Listening to scriptures of Shiva used to take Sri Ramakrishna to such deep samadhi as if he will never come back. So he often told the devotee to chant stotras of Devi to bring the mind down.

In a single life Sri Ramakrishna had the vision of Divine Mother, Sri Krishna, Lord Shiva, Sri Radha, Sri Chaitanya and Nithyananda, Sri Rama, Jesus Christ, Buddha and many more. And combine it with Advaita. Sri Ramakrishna is a combination of the essence of all major religions and sects.

To understand Sri Ramakrishna one has to have a devotion as transparent as pure water which is at the same time fathomless, on which any Gods and Goddesses can be imprinted. It is equally amenable to bhakti and jnana. Bhagavan Ramana used to walk all by himself till the end, but Sri Ramakrishna always had an attendent; for his moods were varied, "Bhava Sagara", and anytime his mind used to surge to samadhi losing all sense of external world. He once fell down during samadhi and injured his arm.

Many have slighted the visions of Sri Ramakrishna, including Narendranath himself in the beginning. Who can fathom such mysteries? Sri Ramakrishna continued to have visions even after Advaita realisation. And many of his visions used to come true. He was Brahman Himself with both Nirguna and Saguna aspects, who sang and danced in ecstasy seeing His own nature. And he freely shared that ecstasy with others. Many have stopped short to describe Brahman (being indescribable) but Sri Ramakrishna described Brahman in so many different ways.

The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna is a veritable nectar of devotion and knowledge ... Kathamrita, the nectar of words.
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Ramana Maharshi says to see god in other external objects is not real
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2010, 06:05:32 PM »
There is one saying in Tamizh, by Tirumoolar I suppose, Please correct me if I may be wrong.

"Arindadu chiridalavu Alavu, Ariyaadadu Ulagalavu" What we know is just very little, and what is unknown is as much/big as this universe.

Thats why Sri Thyagaraj sang, "Endaro Mahanubhavulu"

general meaning of the song goes thus:

In this gem of a poem, Thyagaraja, described the greatness of the devotees through the ages. He pays his salutations to the great men who live in all the ages, A yogi attains and enjoys paramananda by reaching the stage of samadhi when in the course of sahasra chakra the power of kundalam and maheswara are joined  together from where at flood of nectar is released. In the soundarya Lahiri , Shankara Bhagwat Sahesrarey praises ambal as “Padma Sahahasi, Padya Vihase”. True devotees are persons who have attained this stage.

Rama is handsome like manmada, He has a majestic walk, and we should see him clearly. Those who are engaged in Samagana should do Rama's bhajan through music based on ragam, bhava and laya, The poet says that devotion means to surrender you lotus like mind at his feet,

We should understand that paramatma lives in all the living things and therefore we should live with love and friendship. We should understand the meaning and greatness of the religion after careful study and praise the glory of Rama with a peaceful mind There will be many men, Who knowing the greatness of Shri Rama, have understood that religion without bhakti is meaningless. There will be any devotees who fall into the above category who by means of true bhakti are able to derive boundless joy by meditation on him.

I bow to all these great men and my salutation are to the immortal men who through bhakti are totally devoted to Rama and who are close Thayagaraja. My salutations to his dear followers and worshippers


Internet sources

Salutations to all great souls of all ages

My beloved Ramana, Salutations to you, in whom who I see all
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

ramanaduli

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 851
    • View Profile
Re: Ramana Maharshi says to see god in other external objects is not real
« Reply #38 on: June 19, 2010, 12:32:49 AM »
Dear Nagaraj ji


I think it is KARRADHU KAIALAVU KALLADHDHAU ULAHALAVU. It comes in Avvaiyar movie when she was defeated by Lord Muruga. When He asked CHUTTA PAZHAM VENDUMA CHUDADHA PAZHAM VENDUMA.  So I think it is said by
Avvaiyar.
As you say there are many many true devotees. Appar swamigal also say in His Thevaram.  Adiyarkku adiyen.
It seems easier than any other step.

Ramanaduli

ramana_maharshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3557
    • View Profile
Re: Ramana Maharshi says to see god in other external objects is not real
« Reply #39 on: June 19, 2010, 01:52:13 AM »
Quote
what are the indicators that a person is self-realized?

Silent Green Garu,

There was also some discussion happened in this forum in the past of who is Satguru and how to recognise a geniune guru.

If you are interested please read below link as well.

http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=317.0

Udai garu's response might be of interest to you.

Quote
Dear Friends,
      While selecting modern living gurus please be cautious. If we select someone and the person proves out to be a fraud --- it is lot of sorrow. We need to be very cautious to see every move of the person before calling him a guru.
My way is , i pick what ever is correctly said, no matter who says it --- ask doubts and get clarifications : ultimately, i treat no one as guru in ultimate sense, but everyone from whom i learnt a new perspective or way is  a guru so to say. But someone who taught me something vital, if he proves out to be a fraud, i wont feel let down, as i took his teaching and not everything aspect of his life. This would make sure we wont get let down by personal defects of the teacher.

Love!
Silence


ramana_maharshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3557
    • View Profile
Re: Ramana Maharshi says to see god in other external objects is not real
« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2010, 12:40:32 PM »
Dear Silent Green Garu,

There was also some discussion happened in this forum in the past How Ramana's Philosophy can help us spot a Fake Swami.

http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=4688.0

That link also can help you.

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Ramana Maharshi says to see god in other external objects is not real
« Reply #41 on: June 19, 2010, 02:26:15 PM »
Dear I, (ramanaduliji)

Yes, you are correct, I have heard that quote in some Avvaiyaar movie, I had forgotton where I had heard it. They made such brilliant movies during that time, Kandan Karunai, Thiruvarutchelvar, Thiruvilayaadal, Thirumaal perumai, etc... they are all my favorites.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

viswanathan

  • Guest
Re: Ramana Maharshi says to see god in other external objects is not real
« Reply #42 on: June 19, 2010, 06:09:46 PM »
Re: Ramana Maharshi says to see god in other external objects is not real

There are quite interesting and elaborate posts on the  topic “Ramana maharishi says to9 see god in other external objects is not real”  .I would like share some of my views based on my understanding of sastras and the teachings of Bhagavan on the subject matter

As per Drik-Drisya Viveka of Adi sankara(Bhagavan has also given commentary on Drik Drisya Viveka), the SEER is conscience and SEEN is inert. This is the golden rule. This is what Sri Ramana Maharishi means by the statement  to see god in external objects is not real since  what ever seen is the object which is mithya (Mithya means it is dependent and not independent) and asat and not the subject which is independent.. The the very first sloka of Drik Srisya Viveka  beautifully explains about seer and seen as under.

When we see forms and colours through eye, the eye is the seer and forms and colours are seen. However, eye cannot see the objects unless the objects seen by eye are recognized by mind. Then the mind becomes the seer and the eye becomes seen. But, the mind cannot recognize the objects unless it gets its power from atma .This, we daily experience  in our deep sleep where the mind is withdrawn and we are not aware of any objets. Ultimately, witness/ atma/conscience/Self/I/god whatever name we call is the SEER(subject) and all others are SEEN(object) and hence inert only. However, the objects such as the physical body, the subtle body (consisting of manas,buddhi,ahankara and chittam) and the causal body gets their sentiency due to its association with atma. Sastras proclaim  that  Jiva is the combination of sentient atma(Chit)and insentient  body(asat). Similarly, Easwara(God) is the combination of Sentient Brahman (chit)+ inert maya (asat).

As per Swami Sukabodananda, the body is seen, the mind (which is nothing but collection of thoughts) is  seen and the intellectual knowledge is also seen and there is SEER within which is known as  Drik in Sanskrit and is the subject. All others are Drisyam or SEEN also known as objects and hence jada or inert.

Swami Tejomayanandai (Head of Chinmaya Mission) in his  commentary to  25th sloka  of Upadesa Saram,  says that during meditation, a devotee  can have a vision of   god as Sri.Balagopalan or Sri Rama due to the grace of god and due to the power of his deep faith and due to his deep devotion.  However,what is seen by the devotee as a form is only Jada, perishable  and has limitation whereas God is beyond time, space and causation. (Swami Tejomayananda has given  excellent commentaries on Upadesa saram and Drik, Drsya Viveka and these  books are published by Central Chinmaya mission Trust,).
Hence, seer is the god and whatever seen is inert only








Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Ramana Maharshi says to see god in other external objects is not real
« Reply #43 on: June 19, 2010, 06:29:31 PM »
Dear I,

very nice and concise post on Seer and Seen, Sri Shankara's Drik Drisya Viveka is very interesting work, that gives the subtle essence of Advaita Tatva very beautifully.

The universe is just a reflection of our own Self, The thoughts in the form of knowledge manifests itself as the world. When this Chitta or mind stuff is directed inward to Self, the external world is not!

The ideal interpretation would be, that the Self is neither the Seer or the Seen, as it is only the 'I' with ideas and knowledge that sees but Self is just Is.

Therefore through this wisdom, one needs to uplift oneself through ones own Self - Uddaret Atmanaatamanam.

Self is Sri Bhagavan, Self is our Guru.

During the last days of Sri Bhagavan, He said "Where could I go, I am here"

That 'I' which Sri Bhagavan meant was not Himself, but the Self which is One, which is our True Self, which is Always effulgent

Salutations to Sri Ramana
« Last Edit: June 19, 2010, 06:31:22 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Ramana Maharshi says to see god in other external objects is not real
« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2010, 06:41:36 PM »
Sri Bhagavan in Ramana Hridayam 25 says thus:

द्र्ष्टारं स्वमुपेक्ष्य पश्यति नरो रूपं परेशस्य चेत्
सा रूपस्य मनोमयस्य हि भवेद्वीक्षा न सत्या विभोः ॥
तत्वं स्वं किमु तं प्रपश्यति परं त्वस्येक्षको वा मुनिः
नष्टाहंकृतिरेष किंचिदपि नो भिन्नः परस्माद्विभोः ॥

When one sees a form of God, neglecting oneself the seer, that vision is merely the vision of a mental form; it is not a true vision of God. Does the Sage that has direct vision of the Self see that supreme Being, who is (the) Real Self? Having lost the ego, he (the Sage) is not in the least distinct from Him.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta