Author Topic: Question on free will  (Read 5861 times)

kde

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Question on free will
« on: June 05, 2010, 11:00:07 PM »
I have been thinking lately about this, and started to doubt we have any free will at all.

It seems to me we ether have total free will or none at all. The later seems most likely to me. Though the illusion of free will is present.

Can someone say what did Ramana think regarding free will?

 


Subramanian.R

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Re: Question on free will
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2010, 09:03:26 AM »

Dear kde,

There is NO FREE WILL at all for anyone.  Everything is predestined.
He said Devaraja Mudaliar, when the latter asked Him about it:

Everything is predestined.

Mudaliar:  Even my putting the hand fan on the floor or getting it
again for some breeze?

Bhagavan:  Yes.

Mudaliar:  Even my intention to take a cup of water....?

Bhagavan:  Yes.  Nothing happens without the destiny.  There
is no free will.  I came away from my family to T'malai, so that
I could be free.  But here, there is a bigger family around me.
Where is the free will?

But a self realized Jnani does not care about free will or destiny.
For him, both are not there.  Because, he has seen the source of
both, that is, the Self.  See ULLadu Narpadu, Verse 19.  So long
as you do not use discrimination of real and unreal and attain the
Reality, the free will-destiny discussions will go on.

Arunachala Siva.     
 

kde

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Re: Question on free will
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2010, 01:16:15 PM »
Dear Subramanian.R,

Thanks for your reply. I was hoping someone would argue in favor of freewill. It's something I will have to think about more.

On the other hand, Ramana seems very clear on the subject. If everything is decided before birth, then even our every thought is predestined. It would seem that surrender is the only course to take. Even that would be predestined.

It's believable but hard to accept.

Regards


Subramanian.R

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Re: Question on free will
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2010, 03:55:48 PM »

Dear kde,

Yes.  There are several siddha (yogic) poets who have sung in their
songs about destiny and total surrender to Siva.  One
siddha saint had said:  "In sleep, I inhale, and if that air does not come back to my nostril again, after exhalation, O Siva, who is there but You, for me?"

One another siddha saint had sung:  He took his hearty meals from
his wife's hands.  He put of the lights and copulated with her  joyously.  Then, "He said, there is some pain on my left chest...."
He was not there to speak any more!  O Siva, what can I do in
life, but to seek your grace?

The impermanence of life - if one truly understands, he will surrender to God totally.         

Arunachala Siva.

ramanaduli

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Re: Question on free will
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2010, 04:02:52 PM »
Advaita proclaims we all are ever free. But when we do not understand then the question arises whether I got free will or not. Jnanis never bother about free will.


Ramanaduli

Nagaraj

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Re: Question on free will
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2010, 04:40:11 PM »
It is only the Ego that dabbles with the idea about freewill, goes in search of happiness, but in vain.

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

kde

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Re: Question on free will
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2010, 05:26:18 PM »
So the question of freewill only arises because we or ego is ignorant.
We are free always because we are NOT the ego, but the eternal Self? 
Believing that we are the ego, life and personalty, that is the mistake.
So to believe in freewill is to believe we are the ego.
That would only compound the first mistake.

Thanks for you answers. I think I get it.  :)

amiatall

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Re: Question on free will
« Reply #7 on: June 07, 2010, 06:15:39 PM »
analysis tells a lot:
freewill implies choice, choice implies confusion
no confusion - no choice = everything is clear

ramana_maharshi

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Re: Question on free will
« Reply #8 on: June 07, 2010, 06:26:20 PM »
Dear Kde,

I request you to read below article.

http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=5444.0

Graham

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Re: Question on free will
« Reply #9 on: June 07, 2010, 08:53:33 PM »
Without free-will there could be no spiritual progress. Free-will is essential. Free-will relates to mind and not to the body.

It is said that karma/destiny is decided at the moment of birth and that what the ego/mind/body complex has to endure, it will endure, no matter how much you try to avoid it. However, we are free to identify with it or not.


In the Uddahava Gita, Lord Krishna states:

XIII

Extinction of the ‘I’-sense

“Sattva, Rajas and Tamas are the qualities of prakriti (phenomena), and not of the Self. By Sattva the other two are subdued, and Sattva by Sattva itself. From Sattva arises righteousness which inevitably leads to devotion and culminates in the realisation of the Self. Righteousness curbs unrighteousness which rises from Rajas and Tamas.”

Uddhava remarked that most men know that the sensuous pleasures are baneful in their results, inviting endless trouble, yet like dogs, donkeys and goats they heartily plunge into them, and asked why it is so. The Lord answered:

“It all begins with the perverse sense of ‘I’ rising in the heart, which causes the formidable, misery-ridden rajas to invade the mind and induce it to conceive notions of enjoyable objects and the means of enjoying them. Long brooding on the attractive features of a particular object creates an uncontrollable passion for it, which overwhelms the mind and impels irrevocable actions. Although the perception of the evil consequences of such actions is present, the impetuosity of the passion is too strong to arrest them. But the man of discrimination exerts hard to control his infatuation, and, thus, spares himself future suffering. Such a man will turn his mind to Me, away from everything else, and will be finally established in Me. This is the Yoga which I taught to Brahma in the presence of My disciples, the four Kumaras, Sanaka and his brothers.”

------------------------------

This clearly indicates free-will at work and the fruit of desire.

As I have said elsewhere on this forum, everyone would do well to read the Srimad Bhagavatham, which dispels all doubts about creation and Self.


Jewell

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Re: Question on free will
« Reply #10 on: June 08, 2010, 04:11:02 AM »
Dear kde, I think free will must exist.Coz without it whole Creation would be mehanic,and without sense.If all is predestined,karma doasn have any meaning.How then we can learn from our mistakes,experiences.Our exsistence is then meaningless.In some way you cant answer on that question with no or yes.Coz in some way it exist.On other side,without time,space and causation,it probably doasnt exist.Its very relative and complex.Here,i believe it exist.Without i would be just a slave.And i know im not a slave.

Jewell

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Re: Question on free will
« Reply #11 on: June 08, 2010, 04:24:54 AM »
We have choice to act.That can be right or wrong.Acording to that we must bear consequences.But apart from that we do have free choice,will.

ramanaduli

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Re: Question on free will
« Reply #12 on: June 08, 2010, 06:42:06 AM »
I think we can use our free will to be silent and to do atma vicharam.
Other than this we have to bear the fruit whether good or bad.


Ramanaduli


Nagaraj

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Re: Question on free will
« Reply #13 on: June 08, 2010, 10:58:41 AM »
The only desire we can have, Bhagavan says is to only have desire for realising the Self. This is the only Free Will we have.

Another name or term for Free Will is Desire.

We have right to desire only for the Self alone
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

kde

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Re: Question on free will
« Reply #14 on: June 08, 2010, 01:47:53 PM »
"It is said that karma/destiny is decided at the moment of birth and that what the ego/mind/body complex has to endure, it will endure, no matter how much you try to avoid it. However, we are free to identify with it or not".

Thats an excellent answer, yet as Jewell said it still leaves us acting like mechanical robots, following a predestined path. Only with the choice not to identify with it. Perhaps thats all the choice we need. 

I think we are free to identify or not with the mind/body, even then its very hard not to identify with it. I feel something other then my own weak will is needed to break the iron grip of illusion. So we can only do so in line with our capacity to do so. 

Ramana: Free-Will holds the field in association with individuality. As long as individuality lasts so long there is Free-Will. All the sastras are based on this fact and they advise directing the Free-Will in the right channel.Find out to whom Free-Will or Destiny matters. Abide in it. Then these two are transcended. That is the only purpose of discussing these questions. To whom do these questions arise? Find out and be at peace.

Ramana always returns to the point of solving the problem.