Author Topic: The source of ''I''...  (Read 3630 times)

Adam

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The source of ''I''...
« on: May 10, 2010, 02:20:47 PM »
''The very purpose of self-enquiry is to focus the entire mind at its source.''

But where is the source? Many times during meditation and enquiry, my attention has been redirected to different places, sometimes the human heart, sometimes half way down my spine, sometimes at the base of my spine and sometimes the crown of my head. This aroused a curiosity in me and i began wondering exactly what part the kundalini played in this process? I started to search the forum and all Ramana texts in hopes of finding an answer. Unfortunately, i am still not fully understanding. Do thoughts arise from the base of the spine where kundalini lays dormant? The crown chakra? I wonder does anybody know where the ''I'' thought rises from?

amiatall

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Re: The source of ''I''...
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2010, 03:05:50 PM »
"I" rises from the same source as all other thoughts - the heart.

"But where is the source?"
Can be answered only by yourself. Search it. And then look at the one who searches, where did he come from?
It is good to remember sometimes, that anything you know and see and experience is an object.

ramana_maharshi

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Re: The source of ''I''...
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2010, 03:58:58 PM »
Dear Adam,

I request you to read the article in the below thread.

http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=5162.0

Please do let us know if you need any more help.

Adam

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Re: The source of ''I''...
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2010, 04:17:05 PM »
Talk 78
M.: There is no investigation into the Atman. The investigation can only
be into the non-self. Elimination of the non-self is alone possible.
The Self being always self evident will shine forth of itself.
The Self is called by different names - Atman, God, Kundalini,
mantra, etc. Hold any one of them and the Self becomes manifest.
God is no other than the Self. Kundalini is now showing forth as the
mind. When the mind is traced to its source it is Kundalini. Mantra
japa leads to elimination of other thoughts and to concentration
on the mantra. The mantra finally merges into the Self and shines
forth as the Self.


You see my confusion? Ramana has stated that the self, and kundalini are one and the same.



ramana_maharshi

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Re: The source of ''I''...
« Reply #4 on: May 10, 2010, 04:30:18 PM »
Dear Adam,

I donot know anything about kundalini and i have done some google search to know more about it.

http://www.kundaliniyoga.org.uk/whatis.html

Quote
The word "kundalini" literally means "the curl of the lock of hair "

It is a metaphor, a poetic way of describing the flow of energy and consciousness that already exists within each one of us. These practices enable you to merge with, or "yoke" with, the universal Self. This merging of individual consciousness with universal consciousness creates a "divine union" called "yoga." *of the beloved."

Kundalini Yoga, the Yoga of Awareness, consists of simple yogic techniques that can be enjoyed by everyone, no matter his or her age or physical ability. It is a complete science that includes breath (pranayam), yoga postures (asanas), sound, chanting (mantra) and meditation. It is designed to provide you with the experience of your highest consciousness through the raising of your Kundalini.

*Excerpts from the book "Kundalini Yoga, the Flow of Eternal Power" by Shakti Parwha Kaur Khalsa.


So it means Kundalini Yoga is indirect way of achieving self-realisation like pranayama,mantra japa,concentration of breath control techniques,restriction of food and sleep.....

But Adam Garu as bhagavan suggests the most direct and efficient way is by self enquiry only.

I request you to read below article as well

http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=4645.0

Adam

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Re: The source of ''I''...
« Reply #5 on: May 10, 2010, 04:40:31 PM »
Brother i do not practice kundalini yoga. My only practice is that of self enquiry. But still i wonder, ''from whence I came?'' It seems this is of the utmost importance yet finding answers is difficult. Should one spend an entire lifetime directing attention to an illusory source? I am simply trying to find the source as Ramana has stated.


M.: The Kundalini of jnana marga is said to be the Heart, which is
also described in various ways as a network of nadis, of the shape
of a serpent, of a lotus bud, etc.
D.: Is this Heart the same as the physiological heart?
M.: No, Sri Ramana Gita defines it as the origin of the ‘I-thought’.
D.: But I read that it is on the right of the chest.
M.: It is all meant to help the bhavana (imagery). There are books
dealing with six centres (shadchakra) and many other lakshyas
(centres), internal and external. The description of the Heart is
one among so many lakshyas. But it is not necessary. It is only the
source of the ‘I-thought’. That is the ultimate truth.



So again my search continues, what is the source of the ''I'' thought?

ramana_maharshi

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Re: The source of ''I''...
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2010, 05:39:17 PM »
Dear Adam,

Good question.

Below are few important quotes picked from the article

Quote
Question: You say the ‘I’-thought rises from the Heart-centre. Should we seek its source there?

Bhagavan: I ask you to see where the ‘I’ arises in your body, but it is really not quite correct to say that the ‘I’ rises from and merges in the Heart in the right side of the chest. The Heart is another name for the reality and it is neither inside nor outside the body. There can be no in or out for it, since it alone is.

Question: Should I meditate on the right chest in order to meditate on the Heart?

Bhagavan: The Heart is not physical. Meditation should not be on the right or the left. Meditation should be on the Self. Everyone knows ‘I am’. Who is the ‘I’? It will be neither within nor without, neither on the right nor on the left. ‘I am’ - that is all. Leave alone the idea of right and left. They pertain to the body.The Heart is the Self. Realise it and then you will see for yourself. There is no need to know where and what the Heart is. It will do its work if you engage in the quest for the Self.

I request you to read below article where David Godman explains in detail about the source of the 'i-Thought'.

http://sri-ramana-maharshi.blogspot.com/2008/07/meditation-on-heart-centre.html


ramana_maharshi

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Re: The source of ''I''...
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2010, 06:09:21 PM »
Adam garu,

I hope you would have read the article i mentioned and now came to clarification that it is better we concentrate on the question "TO whom the thoughts arise and know that we are not the mind,body and merge in self rather than seeking from where do the 'i-thought' arise which i think is not worth seeking.

Concentrating on the Heart-centre is, as Bhagavan remarked, the best place to put one's attention if one wants to do a practice that focuses on a bodily location. However, it is not self-enquiry. And far from being an aid to self-enquiry, it is actually a hindrance. It uses the power of your concentration to maintain an awareness of a thought-object. Self-enquiry can only be done properly if attention is focused exclusively on the subject, the one who is doing the looking.

Bhagavan distinguished between enquiry and meditation by saying that enquiry puts attention on the subject 'I' whereas meditation maintains an awareness of an object. Concentration on the Heart-centre is meditation, not enquiry.

Because Sri Ramana often said ‘Find the place where the “I” arises’ or ‘Find the source of the mind’, many people interpreted these statements to mean that they should concentrate on this particular centre while doing self-enquiry.

Sri Ramana rejected this interpretation many times by saying that the source of the mind or the ‘I’ could only be discovered through attention to the ‘I’-thought and not through concentration on a particular part of the body. He did sometimes say that putting attention on this centre is a good concentration practice, but he never associated it with self-enquiry.

He also occasionally said that meditation on the Heart was an effective way of reaching the Self, but again, he never said that this should be done by concentrating on the Heart-centre. Instead he said that one should meditate on the Heart ‘as it is’. The Heart ‘as it is’ is not a location, it is the immanent Self and one can only be aware of its real nature by being it. It cannot be reached by concentration.
 
The Heart is not physical. Meditation should not be on the right or the left. Meditation should be on the Self. Everyone knows ‘I am’. Who is the ‘I’? It will be neither within nor without, neither on the right nor on the left. ‘I am’ - that is all. Leave alone the idea of right and left. They pertain to the body. The Heart is the Self. Realise it and then you will see for yourself. There is no need to know where and what the Heart is. It will do its work if you engage in the quest for the Self.

As david godman says

(a) the Heart-centre is a real place, the place in the body from where the 'I'-thought arises and into which it subsides (b) self-enquiry is the process through which the 'I'-thought is made to retreat back into the Self via the Heart-centre (c) that concentrating on this centre is not the way to make the 'I'-thought go back into the Self.

silentgreen

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Re: The source of ''I''...
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2010, 09:02:52 AM »
If it is difficult to find:  From where the I rises from?
then you may try to find: To where the I lose itself?
Both point to the same place.

Another thing to notice is: How is the source of I being traced?
Is it traced like tracing a long thread trying to find its end?
Or is it traced like tracing water beneath a sheet of ice on a frozen lake?
Or is it traced like losing oneself in a volume of space?

Trying different approaches often helps. Because in spiritual life the literal meaning of the words are only pointers; a lot needs to be understood by common sense and intuition.
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

Adam

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Re: The source of ''I''...
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2010, 10:10:43 AM »
Adam garu,

I hope you would have read the article i mentioned and now came to clarification that it is better we concentrate on the question "TO whom the thoughts arise and know that we are not the mind,body and merge in self rather than seeking from where do the 'i-thought' arise which i think is not worth seeking.

Concentrating on the Heart-centre is, as Bhagavan remarked, the best place to put one's attention if one wants to do a practice that focuses on a bodily location. However, it is not self-enquiry. And far from being an aid to self-enquiry, it is actually a hindrance. It uses the power of your concentration to maintain an awareness of a thought-object. Self-enquiry can only be done properly if attention is focused exclusively on the subject, the one who is doing the looking.

Bhagavan distinguished between enquiry and meditation by saying that enquiry puts attention on the subject 'I' whereas meditation maintains an awareness of an object. Concentration on the Heart-centre is meditation, not enquiry.

Because Sri Ramana often said ‘Find the place where the “I” arises’ or ‘Find the source of the mind’, many people interpreted these statements to mean that they should concentrate on this particular centre while doing self-enquiry.

Sri Ramana rejected this interpretation many times by saying that the source of the mind or the ‘I’ could only be discovered through attention to the ‘I’-thought and not through concentration on a particular part of the body. He did sometimes say that putting attention on this centre is a good concentration practice, but he never associated it with self-enquiry.

He also occasionally said that meditation on the Heart was an effective way of reaching the Self, but again, he never said that this should be done by concentrating on the Heart-centre. Instead he said that one should meditate on the Heart ‘as it is’. The Heart ‘as it is’ is not a location, it is the immanent Self and one can only be aware of its real nature by being it. It cannot be reached by concentration.
 
The Heart is not physical. Meditation should not be on the right or the left. Meditation should be on the Self. Everyone knows ‘I am’. Who is the ‘I’? It will be neither within nor without, neither on the right nor on the left. ‘I am’ - that is all. Leave alone the idea of right and left. They pertain to the body. The Heart is the Self. Realise it and then you will see for yourself. There is no need to know where and what the Heart is. It will do its work if you engage in the quest for the Self.

As david godman says

(a) the Heart-centre is a real place, the place in the body from where the 'I'-thought arises and into which it subsides (b) self-enquiry is the process through which the 'I'-thought is made to retreat back into the Self via the Heart-centre (c) that concentrating on this centre is not the way to make the 'I'-thought go back into the Self.



Yes brother i have read all the links you provided me with. I have a much better understanding now thank you. It is strange though, i get a feeling of dejavu. It seems every couple of months my concentration is broken and i start asking the same questions again even though i have already been through this process. There is nothing left to do other than to continue in my enquiry, and the self will be revealed. Thank you to all who replied your input is much appreciated.

Beloved Abstract

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Re: The source of ''I''...
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2010, 11:19:22 PM »
where is the source ? ...... it is right here , right now , this very instant .
"search ...... in hopes of finding an answer." ..... this is your mistake . the source can never be found by searching with the mind . the search is actually what is keeping you from realizing you are ALREADY the source . just in this moment tell yourself that you will NEVER find the answer , give up all hope of ever knowing . what a relief it is to have that burden gone , with peace and stillness remaining .  in that stillness is the truth of who you are , awareness itself . enquire in this stillness and see for yourself if you can find the boundary between you and awareness .
simply stop telling the story of the self and see who you are without it

paul

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Re: The source of ''I''...
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2010, 02:42:22 AM »
My view on this is the answer to your question is given in

Who Am I ? (Nan Yar ?)
The Teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi.

9. What is the path of inquiry for understanding the nature of the mind?
That which rises as ‘I’ in this body is the mind. If one inquires as to where in the body the thought ‘I’ rises first, one would discover that it rises in the heart. That is the place of the mind’s origin. Even if one thinks constantly ‘I’ ‘I’, one will be led to that place. Of all the thoughts that arise in the mind, the ‘I’ thought is the first. It is only after the rise of this that the other thoughts arise. It is after the appearance of the first personal pronoun that the second and third personal pronoun appear; without the first personal pronoun there will not be the second and third.

I believe It tells us how to get to the Heart by following that simple advice. It is not important where it is.

Subramanian.R

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Re: The source of ''I''...
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2010, 08:47:55 PM »

Dear Adams,

Kundalini is the process of raising the fire of Jnana, from solar
plexus to crown of the head.  This has nothing to do with Self
Enquiry.

Bhagavan's Heart is not organic blood pumping heart.  It is esoterically supposed to be on the right side of the chest, two digits from the mid-chest.

The Source for both the Self (I-I) and mind or ego (I) are both
the Heart.  The idea of self enquiry is to quell the ego in the Source, the Self or Brahman or ULLa PoruL, as Bhagavan Ramana says in
Sad Darsanam, Tamil version, Verse 1.

In Kundalini the fire of Jnana goes through a centre called anahata, which is somewhere near the right chest.  But this is not Heart of
Bhagavan Ramana.  From anahata, the fire power of Jnana further travels up through ajna (Adam's apple)  and sahasrara (the crown).  Bhagavan Ramana says that this fire of Jnana should come down from crown back to Heart to attain Atma Bodahm, or self realization. 

The self enquiry is a direct path, which does not need anything.  For seekers it is in the Heart.  After seeking and obtaining the Jnana Bodham, the Heart is everywhere, without beginning, middle and end, verticality or horizontality.  Bhagavan Ramana saw the Heart as all pervading Self, everywhere in the universe, see verse 5 of Sri Arunachala Pancha Ratnam.

Arunachala Siva.