Author Topic: dear sadhaks whats with your body?  (Read 5851 times)

matthias

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dear sadhaks whats with your body?
« on: April 30, 2010, 01:57:04 PM »
what I have read is that the idea "iam the body" is the main root of suffering.

but I also witnessed this idea totally perverted or not? I would like to talk with you about the fact that there seems to be body for us, and waht this means, how is our relationship with it? or are we already beyond body conciousness? who knows?

anyway I think this is a very challenging topic, and we should take some time to talk about it, I have some doubts here and maybe they can be cleared. besides the doubts I also dont like what I see in some meditators, they seem to use meditation to kill the body, make it like a piece of would "totally in control"....its horrible to witness. so maybe we can find a way to use the body for sadhana instead of torture it till we die?

hope some people will join me here.

my first input would be this, if you like try it out.....

you know this photo of bhagawan:



please look at it for some time, first thing you will recognize are his incredible eyes of course, they seem to talk with the deepest core of your beeing but I would like you to focus on another part of his face.

please look at the muscles arround his eyes, what do they say? you see how relaxed (totally relaxed) they are?
now recognize his face, its totally realxed.....not the slightest bit of fear or personality are in the muscles...can you feel what this means, con you feel how your face muscles try to answer what ramanas muscles say?

now use you awereness to look at your own face, use ramana as a mirror...what do you feel, can you feel tension some where?

switch back and forth betwenn youself and what the face of ramana suggests...its like a quiete reminder how it feels to drop the idea "iam the body"...

most meditators run in the exact opposite direction...and complain "why do I not feel bliss during my sadhana"?

I would answer relax you body completely during your meditation and during hte day, and tell me how it feels....the mind becomes very silent and the body very blissfull..

I feel like I sometimes put on a harnish, or a whole armor build up from muscle tension to face the world....
to harden this harnish, that your body is like the non-moving, ever-present atman...you know....I think this is the wrong direciton...

my dzogchen teacher said that abidence in the nature of mind (Self) is developed through relaxation.

its a very deep sentence when you think about...but one need to understand "relax" in the right way.

its about relaxation into your true nature, into the inherent perfection of htis moment, its relaxation of your energies, your body and thoughts...











amiatall

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Re: dear sadhaks whats with your body?
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2010, 01:12:32 AM »
I ll try to share some concepts.
To my mind, what we call the "body" is a limited idea defined by many layers of concepts derived from experience and knowledge. But actually
All is consciousness.
It means, what one calls "a body" - is consciousness in actuality. What one calls "a world" - is consciousness in actuality. "A body" or "a world" rises as separate entities, but factually there is no body and no world. Only consciousness. No separation.
Lets suppose, the idea "i am the body" melts. All ideas melt. What happens actually? Nothing. Does body disappear? no and yes. The body as we know it disappears, but actually it is consciousness, it remains as consciousness or actually only consciousness remains.
All is consciousness. Not even this, when there is no ideas or concepts left about anything, then what is just is as it is.
So the body as body should be forgotten completely. Then there is no misery because then all is consciousness.
Or to put it simply - no personal affair with body as something distinct from the whole and regarded as "me"...


Subramanian.R

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Re: dear sadhaks whats with your body?
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2010, 10:05:01 AM »
Body remains as body for non seekers but it remains an effulgence
for Jnanis.  Bhagavan Ramana said that the body and the world
would still be there, but all bodies would appear as Arunachala
Swarupam and all the world would appear as Swarupam.  Bhagavan
Ramana saw the old, dark complexioned, labourers, with sweating
body and tattered clothes in the Hill, as Arunachala Swarupam.

This is what the verse 5 of Sri Arunachala Pancharatnam also says.

Arunachala Siva.   

matthias

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Re: dear sadhaks whats with your body?
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2010, 05:22:53 PM »
thank you for the replies so far.

what is interessting for me is: how does it feel to be conciousness "embodied" if you like...if this body is god, how does it feel when you actually surrender your body to god?

I guess the "experience" that Iam the self, is some how beyond body conciousness, but there is no shortcut for most sadhaks, they have to go through the body...not sneak arorund it or jump over it in an fearless act of faith...for me I have to be the body in order to let it go...Iam not in hte position to simply drop it, or forget it..because I would supress it, and ignore it though my mind...and eventually end moving arround like a robot...

through kum nye (a part of tsa lung, an form of yogic exerices from tibet) and dzogchen meditation, my body and the knots and blocked energies seem to loosen up, its almost like my body is salt in a glass of water, and through the sadhana it slowly melts into the water... but this is something "I" feel happening..its part of maya of course, no doubt about it, but its an acutal feeling not just an idea. and it feels wonderfull to be here right now, and because we talked about bliss, I have to say that experiencing the body is blissfull, when the body is not surpressed or ingnored or whatever...its not ultimate bliss but a kind of bliss that is naturally given in any wakefull moment...and you can feel and measure your happiness with the sensations of your body not with the mind...the body "feels" the fruits of your sadhana not the head...

I would like to know if someone can relate to what I say, or if Iam running in the wrong direction....could be, I dont know

sarva mangalam
matthias

amiatall

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Re: dear sadhaks whats with your body?
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2010, 06:39:38 PM »
Quote
what is interessting for me is: how does it feel to be conciousness "embodied" if you like...if this body is god, how does it feel when you actually surrender your body to god?
As Ramana said: body is the cross, I is the one to be nailed on the cross. When I is nailed on the cross and dies, what is left?

Quote
I guess the "experience" that Iam the self, is some how beyond body conciousness
Certainly. Who knows the body consciousness?

Quote
but there is no shortcut for most sadhaks, they have to go through the body...not sneak arorund it or jump over it in an fearless act of faith...for me I have to be the body in order to let it go...Iam not in hte position to simply drop it, or forget it..because I would supress it, and ignore it though my mind...and eventually end moving arround like a robot...

In the first place there is no suppressing at all. To suppress anything there must be something to suppress. I am strongly assured that an idea can be dropped in an instant. Insight makes any idea drop dead. You say "I am not in the position to simply drop it or forget it, because i would supress it...", my question is how do you know it? It is just an ideas arising about "how would it be.." at the time of your writing. But actually and factually yes, one must be able to see an idea as an idea only instead of something real.

Quote
through kum nye (a part of tsa lung, an form of yogic exerices from tibet) and dzogchen meditation, my body and the knots and blocked energies seem to loosen up, its almost like my body is salt in a glass of water, and through the sadhana it slowly melts into the water... but this is something "I" feel happening..its part of maya of course, no doubt about it, but its an acutal feeling not just an idea. and it feels wonderfull to be here right now, and because we talked about bliss, I have to say that experiencing the body is blissfull, when the body is not surpressed or ingnored or whatever...its not ultimate bliss but a kind of bliss that is naturally given in any wakefull moment...and you can feel and measure your happiness with the sensations of your body not with the mind...the body "feels" the fruits of your sadhana not the head...

First of all, i would like to say, that there is no one running in the wrong direction, at least on this forum. (You can believe me or not, but Ramana is guiding each and one of us, He really loves us, a human mind has no scope of grasping that love).
I can relate to what you are saying dear matthias, but i would doubt the ideas about "body", "feeling" and "I". In other words, i don't mean to suppress them or to drop them, but just to try to investigate those words by letting to see  what is happening now, in the present moment without naming, defining, superimposing, i can try very dangerously to say: don't name the body as the body, feeling as the feeling etc.
Now, back to the "I" which is the real mystery to be investigated. My question: is there an I to feel something happening as a separate entity?
If we take that: Feeling, I, Body, World are not separate in a sense of awareness, then what makes them separate? Are the ideas and concepts make them separate? I wouldn't doubt that.

Can we speak dangerously? Words are dangerous.


Nagaraj

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Re: dear sadhaks whats with your body?
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2010, 09:44:27 PM »
You are not different from body. You and Body are a Whole.

Why the difference is perceived? why does the mind want to stick to ideas about the body, the 'I'

Its analysis about body is but itself, its analysis about the eternal I is again but itself. You, O entity analysing, rest in peace as the eternal Self, as it is, there is nothing to change or understand or become or attain!

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

matthias

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Re: dear sadhaks whats with your body?
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2010, 11:40:43 PM »
dear nagaraj

your answer is the highest teaching one can recieve, and I have recieved it, and you see here Iam still carring a name and doing sadhana :)

...why? I dont know

anyway it is the truth what you say so Iam thankfull for reminding me.

-------------------------------------

dear amiatall

if you drop an concept it will always happen in an instant like everything arises spontaniously the concepts will arise and drop dead without someone who is in charge of it...it is just happening...

I think (I dont know) that as long as I percieve myself as matthias and you as amiatall I have to practice, its as simple as that...all is in gods hands

so how is this energy, this "iam" how does it feel, and how does it resonate with my body?

is it a running away from my body if I rest as "iamness" or is it a "sinking" or "opening" of my body when I rest as awereness......for me its more an sinking deeper into my body...I feel my aliveness, and fromt hat feeling I can touch the aliveness of everything...the whole universe....when I run away from my body and think Iam contemplating hte "Iam" then Iam contemplating about my head :D

really it feels like that for me, the energy moves upwards and my head is very tense, my chest and neck also...

I remember the talks, a gentleman said ramana he is experiencing the same during sadhana, and he asked what this is..and ramana said its the ego...

aqnd I gues shtis is a crucial point, because one can alway repeat "Iam the self", " all that arises is the self" and still life mostly in the head not in the heart








 


amiatall

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Re: dear sadhaks whats with your body?
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2010, 01:53:18 AM »
Yes. Concepts happening, but as they are happening the circle is being rotated by the rotator who is the concept too. That's the mystery indeed which is not answered anywhere on any book or by any sage. And can be answered only by ourselfs.

dear matthias,

i think, that realization is an organic process.  ;)
What we call the "body", undergoes radical changes in the brain and in nervous system.

Well, yes, repeating "i am the Self" without knowing Self or I, who is (or is not), leads nowhere indeed, and when known, there is no need to repeat. So basicly this statement is empty.
What happens when one realizes that there is absolutely nothing to know? Indeed, life happens  ;)




matthias

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Re: dear sadhaks whats with your body?
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2010, 05:48:57 PM »
i think so too...

still I would like to know about others opinions, its an interessting topic, a crucial one

Subramanian.R

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Re: dear sadhaks whats with your body?
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2010, 06:18:04 PM »
Dear matthias,

I give below the anecdote taken from an article on Sat Darsanam,
in the recent issue (April-June 2010) of Mountain Path, the Asramam
magazine.  The anecdote is self revealing:

Lord Buddha's directives to his disciples was:  "Be light unto yourself."
King Prasenajit came to see the Buddh.  He saw a large number of
bhikkus bowing to him, saying Buddham saranam gacchami..(I surrender to the feet of Buddha).  Prasenajit found a contradiction
in this.  He asked the Buddha:  "Master!  You tell the people, "Be light unto yourself".  But even after this, when they surrender to you, and touch your feet, you do not prevent them.  If you say, "Be
light  unto yourself", there is no need to surrender to anybody else*. So why should theyn fall at your feet?

The Buddha, the enlightened laughed and said:  "These are not my feet*. They are not surrendering to me, because there is nobody inside me* as the ego who can claim surrender.  The disciples are
simply surrendering.  It is not surrender to me.  Since they are not
fully evolved* yet, they are not capable of simple surrender, without an excuse.  My feet are just an excuse.  I, as a person, do not exist!"

(* According to my interpretation, these refer to egofull and egoless states of a devotee and a Brahma Jnani.  For the former there is
still a body, for later there is neither body, nor ego, no mind, he is
the Self, the Effulgence., the Light unto Himself..)

Arunachala Siva.     

Nagaraj

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Re: dear sadhaks whats with your body?
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2010, 07:19:00 PM »
dear nagaraj

your answer is the highest teaching one can recieve, and I have recieved it, and you see here Iam still carring a name and doing sadhana :)

...why? I dont know

anyway it is the truth what you say so Iam thankfull for reminding me.

Dear I,

What you have raised though is a very thought provoking enquiry. But the only thing on can do is to remain at peace with awareness about the awareness of "...why? I dont know"

Just become aware of every reaction the mind has to offer and simply remain aware about it. What we try and do is to try adding a little bit of kerosene, petrol or diesel, ... analyse what the mind has got to offer. But you sure know that whatever mind perceives and thinks, gets desperate, you are not going to get nearer to the truth, for you yourself are verily the Truth itself.

The Mind simply gets impatient.

Just remain aware. Be aware about all the mind has got to offer and simply remain, ignore the calls of mind, just be.

At most what one can do is to just become aware of the fact of our own ignorance. The Mind tries to ascertain itself, but of no avail!

Be aware, just be

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

silentgreen

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Re: dear sadhaks whats with your body?
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2010, 07:23:43 PM »
Quote
I feel my aliveness, and fromt hat feeling I can touch the aliveness of everything...the whole universe....when I run away from my body and think Iam contemplating hte "Iam" then Iam contemplating about my head

This is a good point. Through my liveliness I feel the liveliness of the whole.
I think different people restate this point in different ways. Some like to call it "liveliness of the whole" and eliminate "my liveliness" altogether either because:
- during meditation the "I" starts fading and there appears to be a single continuity of liveliness, or
- from words of saints learnt that there is a single continuum of consciousness, therefore ignore whatever "I" is felt
- actually feel that the liveliness is the actual reality and body is part of it


Quote
really it feels like that for me, the energy moves upwards and my head is very tense, my chest and neck also...

This is also common in meditation. Energy moves upwards towards the head. The tenseness fades if the origin of the energy is the heart space. So even if there are sensations in the head, the essential awareness is in the heart space. (I hope by energy you mean the energy of consciousness.)
Two good indications are:
- bliss
- anahat (unstruck sound)

I can also relate to your other descriptions like:
Quote
my body and the knots and blocked energies seem to loosen up,

if blocked energies are loosened, the gross body consciousness seem to melt in the inner body consciousness which is more subtle...to a point that "body consciousness" appears to be nearing "consciousness" itself.
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

matthias

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Re: dear sadhaks whats with your body?
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2010, 10:59:48 PM »

This is also common in meditation. Energy moves upwards towards the head. The tenseness fades if the origin of the energy is the heart space. So even if there are sensations in the head, the essential awareness is in the heart space. (I hope by energy you mean the energy of consciousness.)
Two good indications are:
- bliss
- anahat (unstruck sound)


no i meant the misstake that one thinks meditaion is "strong conentration" then the body energy moves to the head and it is very exhausting ot meditate...I made this mistakes for at least 1 year and it is still happening from time to time...
 

the rest of your answer filled me with you :)

Beloved Abstract

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Re: dear sadhaks whats with your body?
« Reply #13 on: May 09, 2010, 09:17:53 PM »
so many stories of the self ...... so little time ...... lol
we were taught from birth by our parents and others the story of the self . you are david , you are susan , you are the one who did this or did that , you are good , you are bad ... over and over until you said " yes , i am david , or i am susan" , you BELIEVED the story you were told . this story of the self is the main belief thata all other beliefs are only a part of , the story that all things are compared to and filtered through . who you really are is what is UNCHANGED before and after all the stories of the self come and go , awareness itself , truth . you are ALREADY truth , you have only to STOP BELIEVING you are not . suffering comes from the minds attempt to avoid the truth of who we really are . truth is not a thing . the mind can only concieve of things , and so to the mind this nothingness is death , to be avoided at all cost . truth is simple and CANNOT be practiced ... suffering is complex and REQUIRES much practice .
simply stop telling the story of the self and see who you are without it

matthias

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Re: dear sadhaks whats with your body?
« Reply #14 on: May 09, 2010, 10:35:37 PM »
yes that was a very straightforward advaita answer.....but Iam wondering if it was a neoadvaitic answer or one that is really honest?

anyway you can use talk like this for any topic of life, but you know what: this truth that you are presenting is still there even if you answer the questions that where raised from your own sources of knowledge and experience, from your whole organism, wich may be an illusion (I dont know hte scriptures say so)...but anyway its much more fun...and ramana maharshi also cooked, you see, he showed annamalai swami how to make plaster and encouraged him when he feeled depressed (when I udnerstood the stories right, maybe he didnt do this)

anyway:
for luminaries like ramana maharshi there is no development....Not at all.

even for gautama siddharta was development till he realized, so

if I tell you now with all my honesty IAM BRAHMAN will you believe me?

or do I need to say YOU ARE BRAHMAN, will you believe me then without any further doubt?

if yes, then what are you doing here? if you dont believe, then what is with the body dear sadhaka?

after all IAM BRAHMAN is the truth, but it is truthfull to speak from the "personal" heart...that would be honest  you know, also not a bad thing....

to make my point more clear:
if I ask you: "do you like icecream" and you say "drop your body mind and realize the immortal atman within"

then you know...I would think about talking with you twice, the next time...because I allready know what kind of answer will come...

"you like pizza also?" answer: "you are that!"...

this is not meant to offend you, you see Iam curious about this, I also dont try to steal away your realisation if you are allready awake(how could I?), I just ask this simple question...what is with the body dear sadhak?

may it be virtuous
matthias