Author Topic: Discussion: Work Without Attachment Vs Sankalpas(Desires)  (Read 2239 times)

ramana_maharshi

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Discussion: Work Without Attachment Vs Sankalpas(Desires)
« on: April 28, 2010, 03:38:55 PM »
Subramanian Garu in his previous thread(http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=5154.0) raised a point as below

Quote
3. Though a sincere sadhak, Sastri laid his hands on too many pots.
Politics, Spiritual upliftment of Indians through mantra japas,
Congress committee work, visiting various holy places, (he had
visited 55 temples or holy places in India).  His Sankalpas were
many and strong.  When Bhagavan Ramana was informed of his
passing away, and when someone at that time, asked Him, whether
Sastri had attained liberation, Bhagavan Ramana said:  "How can
it be, he had many sankalpas.

Firstly I doubt whether bhagavan has said that kavyakanta has not attained liberation.Subramanian Garu can you give me the source book name please?

Because i remember when someone asked bhagavan ramana regarding Sri Sankaracharya he said as below.

Quote
D.: Some say that Sri Sankaracharya was only intellectual and not realised. Is it so?

M.: Why worry about Sankaracharya? Realise your own Self. Others can take care of themselves
.


Before starting this topic we all are clearly aware of bhagavan's view of work and renunciation

Quote
D. The work may suffer if I do not attend to it.

M. Attending to the Self means attending to the work. Because you identify yourself with the body, you think that work is done by you. But the body and its activities, including that work, are not apart from the Self. What does it matter whether you attend to the work or not? Suppose you walk from one place to another: you do not attend to the steps you take. Yet you find yourself after a time at your goal. You see how the business of walking goes on without your attending to it. So also with other kinds of work.

It says clearly that bhagavan ramana as said in bhagavad gita tells that work without attachment and not to think 'i am the doer'

Now my doubts are as below

1) How do we know that kavyakanta has sankalpas(desires) and attachment to his body though he laid his hands on too many pots? Does this mean that everyone should still idle and not engage in any useful work? I mean Is there any proof of incidents whether kavyakanta has attachment to his body?

2) If kavyakanta ganapati muni had not attained liberation then can we say even Adi Sankaracharya,Swami Vivekananda has also not attained liberation as more or less he also laid the same path? For that matter even kanchi kamakoti sages also as they believe world is real and even distributed once hanuman chalisa to soldiers in india to come home victorious?

3) If really kavyakanta ganapati muni and Adi Sankaracharya,Swami Vivekananda... has not attained liberation why is that we are following many of their works and have them for our guidance as it might be misleading to read their works who are themselves not realised? Its like a blind man helping another blind?


Request members to pass on their comments as forums like this should help us to eradicate ignorance in us.

My personal opinion:

I somehow feel we need not bother whether kavyakantha or murugunar or adi shankaracharya attained liberation or not but concentrate on their works and leave the results to god.

« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 03:42:19 PM by prasanth_ramana_maharshi »

ramana_maharshi

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Re: Discussion: Work Without Attachment Vs Sankalpas(Desires)
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2010, 03:54:24 PM »
How great Bhagavan ramana is!!!

He has given me answer to my question instantly.

He says Each person had an allotted role to play in this world.So that means we need not bother whether swami vivekananda,adi sankaracharya,kavyakanta ganapati muni has attained liberation or not.

Whole discussion goes like this

Quote
ONCE somebody asked Bhagavan, “Why don’t you visit places and guide people on the right path as Sankara and some others did?”


Bhagavan: Merely being physically alive is itself an act of grace of Mahatmas.Even if they keep quiet, the vibrations set off by the power of their tapas spreads harmony and peace.

The question itself was inappropriate in the first place.Divine beings come into the world with a purpose and no distractions of their mission are desirable. The Maharshi’s abidance in the Self was intended to demonstrate the importance of experiential knowledge as distinct from mere bookish knowledge. The desire for experiential wisdom depends on one’s samskara and there is no use trying to inspire those who do not desire liberation.

Further, mouna-upadesa is best. That subtle power touches the subtle body of the seeker and influences his samskara. Instead of preferring this why look for speech
which is gross?

On another occasion a similar question was put to Bhagavan, to which he replied, “If you go and ask an electric fan to give light, it won’t give it. So is the case with an electric light if it is asked to provide breeze.” Each person had an allotted role to play, that was what Bhagavan meant.

Source: SRI RAMANA LEELA (A BIOGRAPHY OF BHAGAVAN SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI) Telugu original Sri Krishna Bhikshu Edited and Translated by Pingali Surya Sundaram


Subramanian.R

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Re: Discussion: Work Without Attachment Vs Sankalpas(Desires)
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2010, 05:49:11 PM »
Dear prasanth,

I shall find the source book as soon as practicable, because I have
to start from Talks, Day by Day, Letters, Living with the Master and David Godman.  But I have read that statement of Bhagavan.

The other points in your post, yes, it should not be our botheration
to investigate them.  Each according to his prarabdha.

Arunachala Siva.

ramana_maharshi

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Re: Discussion: Work Without Attachment Vs Sankalpas(Desires)
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2010, 06:31:06 PM »
Hmm,

Frankly i am not convinced why bhagavan ramana said that kavya kanta ganapati muni is not realised.

So to conclude it means

One cannot attain liberation if

a) one is engaged in some sort of karma like going to office and maintaining a family life

b) worker who are woking for nation like kavyakanta ganapati muni,raja ram mohan roy,mahatma gandhiji,vivekananda.....

c) person can attain liberation only if we be summa-iruvu (sitting idle)

Wonder how janaka is a realised person who is a gruhasta and ruled his kingdom going acc to the above rules.

If you think i am wrong in my view then please tell me what wrong kavyakanta ganapati muni has done ?

We all know even bhagavan ramana has activily participated in construction works of mother's temple.

Wonder why is ramana ashramam allowing to sell works of KavyaKanta in library as it seems bhagavan ramana himself said he is not realised?

So for me it clearly says that those words are not uttered by bhagavan regarding ganapati muni or maybe someone because of jealously towards ganapati muni should have inserted those statements in their books?

As we all know that even suri nagamma,murugunar and few others... were ill-treated in the ashramam because of jealously of few other devotees.So even this option also we cannot rule out.

Members please englighten me if i am wrong.

ramana_maharshi

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Re: Discussion: Work Without Attachment Vs Sankalpas(Desires)
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2010, 07:01:26 PM »
Well said Udai Shankar garu.

I agree with you and very beautiful explanation indeed.

So for me it clearly says that those words are not uttered by bhagavan regarding ganapati muni and maybe someone because of jealously towards ganapati muni should have inserted those statements in their books.

OR

maybe ganapati muni should have been proud of his works and had 'i am the doer' attitude which is suprising as he was associated with bhagavan with so much time and bhagavan has high regard for him

When Ganapati Muni died in 1936, aged 58, in Kharagpur, West-Bengal,where his devotees had built an ashram for him. When Ramana was informed about his death by telegram, he said, deeply moved and with tears in his eyes, “Where can we find another like him?”

Subramanian.R

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Re: Discussion: Work Without Attachment Vs Sankalpas(Desires)
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2010, 07:15:38 PM »
I was spending the last 30 minutes in searching the source about
Bhagavan Ramana's statement on Kavyakanta, but in vain.  Now
I am relieved that srkudai also has said that he has read it. 
Normally Bhagavan does not make any comments about others,
and if He makes it, they were words of appreciation only.  Even in
case of Sofa Gounder, who was not liked by devotees for many of
his bad deeds, upon his death, when devotees eagerly waited for
what Bhagavan would say, He said: "Oh, he used to wear spotlessly
clean dhotis!"   Ganapati Sastri's case was a rare exception.  But He is a Brahma Jnani and He can make such statements and our job is to read them and keep quiet.  We have no eligibility to make any such statement on our own.

As srkudai said:  It is only doership, enjoyership, desire and hate
that produce vasanas and sankalpas for future.  Not the work per se.


Arunachala Siva.   

ramana_maharshi

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Re: Discussion: Work Without Attachment Vs Sankalpas(Desires)
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2010, 07:39:33 PM »
Quote
Ganapati Sastri's case was a rare exception.  But He is a Brahma Jnani and He can make such statements and our job is to read them and keep quiet.  We have no eligibility to make any such statement on our own.

Subramanian garu,

Kavyakanta is no exception as bhagavan ramana commented on swami vivekananda as well though he was silent when a devotee asked to comment on Adi Shankara garu.

Below talk 252 gives more information.

So we will conclude and agree with bhagavan ramana that atleast vivekananda,kavyakantha are not realised souls
though should have got higher birth as in the case of bhagavan's old devotee paznani swami.

i think its quite clear though i know many won't agree with me that bhagavan's ultimate advice to us is to not to involve in the world and prefer solitude and silence as far as possible which i am convinced for many reasons.

Quote
30th September, 1936

Talk 252.

D.: Sri Ramakrishna touched Vivekananda and the latter realised Bliss. Is it possible?

M.: Sri Ramakrishna did not touch all for that purpose. He did not create Atma. He did not create Realisation.Vivekananda was ripe.He was anxious to realise. He must have completed the preliminary course in his past births. Such is possible for ripe persons only.

D.: Can the same miracle be worked for all?

M.: If they are fit. Fitness is the point. A strong man controls the weaker man. A strong mind controls the weaker mind. That was what happened in the case cited. The effect was only temporary. Why did Vivekananda not sit quiet? Why did he wander about after such a miracle? Because the effect was only temporary.

Source: TALKS WITH SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI Book

Devotee: Bhagavan, it is said that Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa put his palm on the head of Swami Vivekananda and that the latter had transcendental experience. Could you not do some such thing for me.

Bhagavan smiled and said: Yes, scriptures speak of such dikshas (initiations) and hastha diksha is one of them. But that too is a limitation. When a mighty river runs overflowing its banks, why divert it into a particular channel? Let all those who are thirsty drink to their heart's content and capacity.

-- Quotations and Conversations Found in the Ramana Pictorial Souvenir, 1967

Sources:

1) http://www.arunachala.org/newsletters/2004/?pg=jul-aug
2) Talks With Ramana Maharshi Book

Subramanian garu and udai garu,

I am still waiting from you the source book in which bhagavan commented on Kavya Kanta.Please let me know when you find any luck.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2010, 07:41:46 PM by prasanth_ramana_maharshi »