Author Topic: Self-enquiry-Surrender  (Read 25963 times)

Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
« Reply #30 on: August 25, 2008, 04:55:44 PM »
Dear nonduel,  All the ideas have been taken from Sri Sadhu
Om's books.  It is the light shown by him, a true interpreter of
Bhagavan's teachings, apart from Muruganar, Who, Graham
Boyd and David Godman.

Arunachala Siva.

mikroth

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Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
« Reply #31 on: August 25, 2008, 05:57:36 PM »
Sri Arunachala Siva, thank you for that generous response.

The truth could not be clearer ! As Bhagavan says, 'thoughts' arise in the heart; so 'Self-enquiry' arises from the Self -- which could rest in itself; but which finds itself in an alien land, where it must ask for a map or a wise man !

So all self-enquiry must be good of itself..

And one could say, in poetic style: in the heart, the Self is the Who, the What, the Which, the Whence, and thus beyond the time and place of the When and the Where...

So all self-enquiry must be good of itself !

I'm happy to leave my enquiries there; we're implicitly told by Bhagavan not to ask questions on behalf of others !

Nevertheless, a point of grammar remains in English... but I'll leave it to someone else to raise it !

Blessings on you all,
Michael

nonduel

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Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
« Reply #32 on: August 25, 2008, 06:16:06 PM »
Dear nonduel,  All the ideas have been taken from Sri Sadhu
Om's books.  It is the light shown by him, a true interpreter of
Bhagavan's teachings, apart from Muruganar, Who, Graham
Boyd and David Godman.

Arunachala Siva.

Dear Subramanian-ji,

You are too modest my friend.

I have also read and greatly love Sri Sadhu Om's books. Particularly since he wrote the teaching of Sri Ramana in english, thus available to all those who do not speak Tamil, Telugu etc... For all the work that this implies, it is a great gift of Love from Sri Sadhu Om.

Nevertheless, my friend, you have an ability in writting about delicate and subtles points of Sri Ramana's teaching that helps everyone here understand. Your last reply, is a perfect example. I should know, because I often clumsily try to respond to post, and get lost in too many words. I only hope that once in a while they are a little helpful. Grace flows from you to all members here.

Accept a sincere compliment Dear Subramanian !

 
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
« Reply #33 on: August 25, 2008, 06:45:57 PM »
Dear all,
          Self-enquiry is not an enquiry into the self.It is an enquiry into the belief of the ego that it has an independent existence of it's own apart
from the self.It is an enquiry into the identifying entity which imagines itself to be the body.Unless we pay focussed attention to the source of ego and posit there which is self,this belief of the ego that it exists independently of self is not destroyed.
When we posit in the self we are free from the idea of ego which is just a concept and has no locus standi.When we are free from the concept of the ego we are free from the identity with the body and we are free from the mother thought "I-am-the-body-idea" from which all other thoughts arise and so there is collapse of the thought process into it's source.So self-enquiry is basically attending to
the source of thought.This self-attentiveness finally blossom into the experience of pure self-conscious being.
pvssnraju

nonduel

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Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
« Reply #34 on: August 25, 2008, 07:26:47 PM »
Dear all,
          Self-enquiry is not an enquiry into the self.It is an enquiry into the belief of the ego that it has an independent existence of it's own apart
from the self.It is an enquiry into the identifying entity which imagines itself to be the body.Unless we pay focussed attention to the source of ego and posit there which is self,this belief of the ego that it exists independently of self is not destroyed.
When we posit in the self we are free from the idea of ego which is just a concept and has no locus standi.When we are free from the concept of the ego we are free from the identity with the body and we are free from the mother thought "I-am-the-body-idea" from which all other thoughts arise and so there is collapse of the thought process into it's source.So self-enquiry is basically attending to
the source of thought.This self-attentiveness finally blossom into the experience of pure self-conscious being.

Dear raju-ji,

This is an area were it is difficult to find the correct words, because no matter the words used, they are concepts in duality.

Please correct me if I am wrong here.  I have difficulties with """ Self-Enquiry is basically atending to the source of thought".  My understanding is that we are not attending to the source but to the first thought, the mother thought.

The source being the Self.  Because attending to the source, means looking for a localisation. A source means a place, whereas Self-Enquiry is only Self-Attention, putting the attention on I AM, awareness focussing on awareness. The mere attention on oneself.

This is also a doing, but which is the nearest to a BEING.

I know that you know all this Dear Raju, just the play of words.

 
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
« Reply #35 on: August 25, 2008, 09:23:16 PM »
Dear nonduel,
                  As you said when we want to express nonduality in the language of duality there are bound to be difficulties in finding proper words for
what we want to convey and also in understanding what is being said.You said self-enquiry is attending to the mother thought.Yes,when we attend to mother thought all our attention withdrawn from the nonself and is concentrated in the mother thought only without much movement.Then
the final step occurs i.e paying attention to the source of the mother thought also which is nothing but self.When i say source i do not mean
localisation of a place.The source is a living,pulsatile consciousness and unless one experiences it directly for himself any amount of description
will not convey the thing because the description is not the described.One has to live as the source to know the nature of the source.
pvssnraju

Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
« Reply #36 on: August 26, 2008, 11:04:06 AM »
Dear mikroth,  You are correct.  There could be difficulties in
words and their meanings, because each language has got its
own idiom and etimology.  But the fact remains that the SELF
is Who, Where, When, How, Which etc., etc., because the SELF
is One without a second, and there is nothing apart from That.
It is within,without, in and out, vertical, horizonal etc., etc.,

Arunachala Siva.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
« Reply #37 on: August 26, 2008, 11:09:54 AM »
Dear non duel,  You are correct.  Self enquiry is the enquiry into
the source of thought, the Self, but all of us have to first take
one thought, Who am I? in jnana marga, or Am I He, in Atma
Samarpanam in bhakti marga, or My work is His, in karma marga
or My breath is He is yoga marga.  Only the time is the variant here.
One realizes the Self very swiftly, others may take a longer time.
It is here, where our purva-samskarams, the inherent tendencies
of the previous births come into play.

Arunachala Siva.         

Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
« Reply #38 on: August 26, 2008, 11:16:27 AM »
Dear Raju,  "Attending to the mother" is a good example.  For
all thoughts, the mother-thought is Who am I?  This one
thought, when pursued takes us to the Self.  Till we become the
Self, we are non dual and words have to be expressed to explain
the situation.  The Self has no word, no expression.  It is an
experience.  That is why the Upanishads say;  It is there where
the words (Vedas) have gone and come back, without finding.
Bhagavan says that the one thought is the stick that
stirs the funeral pyre.  Even this stick has to be burnt at the end.
(Who am I?  - 1902)

Arunachala Siva. 

mikroth

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Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
« Reply #39 on: August 26, 2008, 03:16:41 PM »
Dear disciples,

I thought I had no further questions... but another point comes to mind : which once again, is not 'my' problem but one which arises to 'early-stage' disciples -- and which arose widely when 'transcendental meditation' first arrived in the thought-laden West..

It could be put simply as 'surrender or inspect ?'

More advanced practitioners have no problem -- 'who?' becomes such 'second nature' that it becomes simultaneous, synonymous, with 'falling still'... like the 'Cheshire cat'  in 'Alice in Wonderland', it slowly fades into a mere instant memory of the question 'Who?' and surrender of ego is instantaneous.

Bhagavan so often said 'The only practice is to find out "to whom these questions arise" '

The 'early-stage disciple' finds themself dealing with a torrent of thoughts... One by one, they are dealt with. But here comes that point of 'surrender or inspect'.. to surrender the thought without regard for its nature -- 'it's just thought...', or look at its nature to see what it reveals of one's personal false ego ?

Over time, 'inspecting the thought' reveals a fundamental picture of ourself which we hold on to as the last thing to give up -- in my case, as 'nonduel' has observed, 'the bright mind' which is first to ask questions, under the guise of asking them for others or for mankind...whose ultimate power can only be of the heart, of the self ?

Did Bhagavan ever comment on this 'jnani' aspect of self-enquiry, and its relation to the fundamental and ultimate practice of 'Who?' ?

Once again, I hope this makes sense...

Mikroth

Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
« Reply #40 on: August 26, 2008, 04:55:18 PM »
Dear mickroth,  Transcedental meditation also gives a word,
mostly meaningless, as 'mantra'.  The idea is to dwell in that
word, its 'sound' which soothes the mind.  This is called Nadha-
upasana' in Sanskrit.  All classical Indian music are only sound-
meditating, Nadha-Upasana!  In the classical dance-posture
of Nataraja, Siva, is full of meaning.  The hand-drum is the
sound aspect.  The snakes are the poisonous mind.  The fire
is the fire of meditation or self enquiry.  The Ganges, on his
head is the water of bliss.  The dwarf under his right leg is
the cantankerous individual soul.  The right lower hand, which
extends like an elephant's trunk, Gaja-hastham,  is the grace,
and the left leg is the merger with the Self. 

But TM goes only upto mano-laya or quietening of the mind.
Bhagavan said that one has to kill the mind, mano-nasa, which
goes beyond the sound, the mantra-japa.  This is what He told
to Kavyakanta Ganapati Muni, a great scholar, and a mantra-siddha
with a lot of super-natural powers, when he cried before Bhagavan
saying that he had not attained piece.

Arunachala Siva.





 



mikroth

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Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
« Reply #41 on: August 26, 2008, 06:28:18 PM »
Sri Subramanian, thank you for that.

I have no experience of TM myself. But I'm sure that the many TM meditators would be relieved to her that Bhagavan didn't forbid mantra meditation to Ganapathi or say that it was useless -- just that he should listen for the source of the mantra.

But I follow the implicit message of your answer. Surrender is 'safer' than 'inspection', which could be simply perpetuating the dualistic actions of the mind 'analyzing' the mind. Or mind could be used as the thorn to remove the thorn of mind !

I guess all would depend, as always, on the purity of devotion !

mikroth

Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
« Reply #42 on: August 26, 2008, 06:53:10 PM »
Dear mikroth,  Surrender is not safer.  It is as difficult as Vichara,
the self enquiry.  We are adept in partial surrenders.  Give me only
sweet or I shall shout at you.  Do not give me neem-paste, lest
I should shout at you. Bhagavan means that surrender, 'saranagati'
in Sanskrit, is Atma Samarpanam, giving your stupid self to the Self.
The Self is considered as feet of the Guru.  Tiruvchakam, the famous
poem of Saint Manikkavachagar, is only the glorification of Siva's
feet.  He says, 'it is beyond the seven underworlds, beyond words.
That is what Arunachala Puranam, says.  Siva stood as a column of
Fire, Brahma, the creator flew on a swan to find its head and Vishnu,
the sustainer, bored the earth as a boar, to find its feet.  Both
failed!  Both could not fathom the Self, Brahman.  Muruganar's
Sri Ramana Padamalai, Guru Vachaka Kovai and Sri Ramana Sannidhi
Murai, are all eulogies on Guru's feet.     

Keep one thought "Who am I?" to find the Self, within.

Arunachala Siva.

mikroth

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Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
« Reply #43 on: August 26, 2008, 07:51:01 PM »
Sri Subramanian --

Apologies. I should have expressed myself more clearly. I was meaning to refer to thoughts arising during the 'stilling' process of self-enquiry: perhaps 'relinquishing' would be more appropriate to individual thoughts ? Though of course the ultimate surrender would await, beyond that action.

The question was simply, whether to 'formulate' those thoughts before reliquishing them, or to 'catch them on the bounce' and relinquish them before they formulate from that cloudy 'mind-stuff' or 'thought-stuff' !

But I felt that you had answered the essential question.. using the mind to 'eliminate' the mind is a risky process; relinquishing the thoughts would be better ? And more propitious to further stillness.

Gratefully,
mikroth

Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
« Reply #44 on: August 26, 2008, 08:06:46 PM »
Dear mikroth,  I can only say what Bhagavan Ramana said:
He says in Who am I?

"What is there, if a number of thoughts arise?  As and when
thoughts arise, you enquire, for whom are these thoughts?
(one thought or a bunch of thoughts.  It may be during enquiry,
or during stilling process.) Then these thoughts will go back
to their "birth-place" that is the Heart. If you continue, there
will be a stage, when there are no thoughts, and only the Self
remains."

Again Bhagavan says:  "It wlll be like soldiers coming out of the
fortress.  As long as there are soldiers,  you go on vanquishing them.
Then the fortress will be on your hands."

Arunachala Siva.