Author Topic: Self-enquiry-Surrender  (Read 25057 times)

SANKAR

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Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
« Reply #15 on: August 23, 2008, 09:49:43 PM »
Dear Subramanian-ji,

Quote:
""Dear srkudai,  We are always the Being.  But since we are all
the time doing the thinking and acting, we do not realize the
Self.  Bhagavan says "Stick to one thinking, Who am I? and banish
all other thinking.
""

This is really hitting the nail on the head!

So simple, yet we complicate it in an absurb way. This is why we sometime get into hot debate instead of trying to understand what the Self is saying. Reality cannot be convey through words. So when anyone writes about non-duality, he is writting with dual words, concepts. One has to tip-toe through the post to see the underlying meaning. Otherwise we can always correct a little something, and/or add to it because of the duality lenses we are seeing through.

It reminds me of Sri Nisargadatta. He didn't analyse, intellectually reflect and pounder on what his guru told him. He accepted, I AM THAT, and that was it! He dwelved on I AM for three years and realised the Self.

The biggest hurdle is this continuous thinking about difficulties, wanting to learn more, to understand more....while Reality is beyond knowledge.

I like Sri Ramana's...Does a man has to continously say he is a man to know he is a man?

We are already what we are trying to reach. We ARE THAT when we are STILL.

Sri Ramana has said repeatedly, that the most direct way to realisation was Self-Enquiry, self-Attention. Why complicate his most precious gift?

He also said "Self-Realise and THEN talk." 



Dear sir,
It takes so long period. So one has to be with patience and persistent enquiry with tolerance in due course of time we may experiance lot of troubles and those are to be tolerated with out reacting to it.

what you quoted on top is the practicality. What difficulties he faced and came out he alone knows. We have to bow to them certainly.

As you said rightly that nonduality can not be explained , as there is no one to explain and there is no second to whom to be explained. In that no body consciouness and only the pure consciousness alone shines.

siva siva

silence light
KANNAN MEERA SANKAR

nonduel

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Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
« Reply #16 on: August 23, 2008, 09:52:49 PM »
Dear sankar-ji,

Yes!
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2008, 11:56:38 AM »
Dear Sankar and non duel, It take a shorter or a longer time,
depending upon the carry bag of 'vasanas'.  It took only an
instant for Bhagavan for He was an 'avatara' and there was
no 'probation' period for Him.  For others to may take more
time, sometimes even 96 years, as Chandogya Upanishad says
or many more births.

Arunachala Siva.     

mikroth

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Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2008, 05:48:07 PM »
This is a respectful enquiry from one who has practised 'Who Am I?' for some time -- in company with many others here in Britain.

It is true, from my experience, that this one question goes straight to the Self and requires no answer, for the question and the answer resolve in the Self...

But for prolonged self-enquiry, the suggestion is that one should ask 'To whom does this thought arise ?'

Grammatically, this question would be inadequate in English grammar; since 'arisal' would need to be 'in' or 'from' some entity. And 'to' suggests direction from a 'thinker' to one addressed..Though of course the intention is clear..

Myself, I have found in this self-analysis or self-inquiry, that posing the questions 'In whom does this thought arise ? And to whom is it directed ?' focus the attention more clearly (for me) in that the ahamkara, the ego, the false 'I' is pointed to as the origin of that thought; and that it is clearly directed to the maintenance, the perpetuating, of that ego, that false I. that ahamkara.

Very often, it's that 'clever fellow' having the thought, in order to perpetuate 'his' opinion of himself...!

Some suggest that 'To whom is this thought addressed ?' will solve the grammatical irregularity. But myself, to seek the 'addressor' is a valid self-enquiry as an aid to surrender.

I apologise if this question has been raised previously. But I (and others I know) would be happy to have 'official' comment on this point -- which I hope does not sound pedantic, or 'cavilling' ! I sincerely hope that the point of this question is apparent..

Yours in the Self,
Mikroth
« Last Edit: August 24, 2008, 05:59:04 PM by mikroth »

SANKAR

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Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2008, 08:06:47 PM »
This is a respectful enquiry from one who has practised 'Who Am I?' for some time -- in company with many others here in Britain.

It is true, from my experience, that this one question goes straight to the Self and requires no answer, for the question and the answer resolve in the Self...

But for prolonged self-enquiry, the suggestion is that one should ask 'To whom does this thought arise ?'

Grammatically, this question would be inadequate in English grammar; since 'arisal' would need to be 'in' or 'from' some entity. And 'to' suggests direction from a 'thinker' to one addressed..Though of course the intention is clear..

Myself, I have found in this self-analysis or self-inquiry, that posing the questions 'In whom does this thought arise ? And to whom is it directed ?' focus the attention more clearly (for me) in that the ahamkara, the ego, the false 'I' is pointed to as the origin of that thought; and that it is clearly directed to the maintenance, the perpetuating, of that ego, that false I. that ahamkara.

Very often, it's that 'clever fellow' having the thought, in order to perpetuate 'his' opinion of himself...!

Some suggest that 'To whom is this thought addressed ?' will solve the grammatical irregularity. But myself, to seek the 'addressor' is a valid self-enquiry as an aid to surrender.

I apologise if this question has been raised previously. But I (and others I know) would be happy to have 'official' comment on this point -- which I hope does not sound pedantic, or 'cavilling' ! I sincerely hope that the point of this question is apparent..

Yours in the Self,
Mikroth

DEAR MIKROTH

HAPPY TO WELCOME YOUR FIRST POST.

AS YOU SAID IS PRACTICALLY CORRECT

AS WE GO WITH "WHO AM I" SOME THOUGHTS DO ARISE

THEN REMOVE THAT THOUGHT BY ENQUIRING WHOM THESE THOUGHTS ARE ARISING; IT IS TO ME., WHO IS THAT ME., I., FINALLY AGAIN DIVE INTO WHO AM I.

ALL THE BEST FOR YOUR CONTINUOUS AND SINCERE ENQUIRY.

SIVA SIVA
KANNAN MEERA SANKAR

nonduel

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Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
« Reply #20 on: August 24, 2008, 08:11:02 PM »
This is a respectful enquiry from one who has practised 'Who Am I?' for some time -- in company with many others here in Britain.

It is true, from my experience, that this one question goes straight to the Self and requires no answer, for the question and the answer resolve in the Self...

But for prolonged self-enquiry, the suggestion is that one should ask 'To whom does this thought arise ?'

Grammatically, this question would be inadequate in English grammar; since 'arisal' would need to be 'in' or 'from' some entity. And 'to' suggests direction from a 'thinker' to one addressed..Though of course the intention is clear..

Myself, I have found in this self-analysis or self-inquiry, that posing the questions 'In whom does this thought arise ? And to whom is it directed ?' focus the attention more clearly (for me) in that the ahamkara, the ego, the false 'I' is pointed to as the origin of that thought; and that it is clearly directed to the maintenance, the perpetuating, of that ego, that false I. that ahamkara.

Very often, it's that 'clever fellow' having the thought, in order to perpetuate 'his' opinion of himself...!

Some suggest that 'To whom is this thought addressed ?' will solve the grammatical irregularity. But myself, to seek the 'addressor' is a valid self-enquiry as an aid to surrender.

I apologise if this question has been raised previously. But I (and others I know) would be happy to have 'official' comment on this point -- which I hope does not sound pedantic, or 'cavilling' ! I sincerely hope that the point of this question is apparent..

Yours in the Self,
Mikroth

Dear Mikroth,

Holding on to the "I-thought" is a "doing" and thus dual. There's a thinker holding on the "I-thought". So the question whether "To whom does this thought arise?" and/or "To whom is this thought addressed?" are both dual in nature.  The semantic question is also from the mind.

The answer to both question is "I", "ME".  One cannot go beyond "me" because the mind, the ego cannot "reach" the Self. This is as "far" as the mind can "go". Thus the mind can only hold on the "I-thought". This is also what Sri Sadhu Om explained, that self-enquiry is simply the attention on the self, on self-awareness

I found that most of the time I don't even ask, that as soon as I notice thoughts, I "return" within. Other times, when thoughts "arrise" I will ask "to whom?" and then just repeat once or twice "I"..."I". I find that this helps to focus on the "I-thought" and deepens it. Sri Ramana also said that to repeat "I" "I" will also lead to Realisation. But I do not think that it is to be repeated like a parrot. He said to Be Still, in silence.

But Dear Mikroth, what is more important, is to "do" it the way in which, you are more succesfull in developping one-pointedness on the "I-thought". The mind is very "bright" in raising questions, objections which take your attention away from the self.

The heart of the teaching is one-pointedness on the "I-thought", keeping the attention on the I  AM. It's the later that's important.
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
« Reply #21 on: August 24, 2008, 08:21:52 PM »
Dear mikroth,
                  I am not an official representative of the forum.What i am writing is only my personal opinion.

                  Seeking the souce of addressor is real self-enquiry which helps in surrender of the ego.
pvssnraju

mikroth

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Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
« Reply #22 on: August 24, 2008, 08:53:53 PM »
Thanks, Raju, for your appreciation of my point.

Of course, self-enquiry begins from duality.. best of all, to focus attention precisely on that duality as a first step..

And as I said, my enquiry was only for clarification..

How Ramana has travelled the world, since his mahasamadhi ! So each language must seek to present the blessing of his message in the right words. English-speaking readers have a slight problem of focus.. but only with this 'secondary' aid for those who start from duality...the question might even have arisen in the translation from the Tamil ?

And even 'Who am I ?' needs to be watched like a hawk, doesn't it, for the one who says it to say it with the total surrender of a sincere devotee of the Self ?

Graham

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Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
« Reply #23 on: August 24, 2008, 10:23:48 PM »
Dear mikroth

There is no 'official' answer to your question except the words of Bhagavan and the other great sages or yore.

Bhagavan was very clear. His teaching is to inquire "Who am I?" or "To whom does this thought arise?" in order to focus the attention on the source of the question, there is no answer, except awareness of 'you'. You simply focus your attention on the answer and remain as that. When the mind strays you bring it back - that's all.

Bhagavan also said that 'Who am I?' is not really correct, 'Whence am I?' is more correct. This clearly implies that the inquiry is not a thought but paying attention to the source of it.

There is no ego apart from the idea of it. Ego is only thought, an aberration on the pure unblemished Self. It arises from the Self and depends upon the Self for its existence; it is never apart from the Self and is in fact the Self, but forgetful of its true nature. It believes the lie of its own existence.

The purpose of the inquiry is to discover the lie and then remain free from it by practicing Self or Brahman. The more you practice, the more tenuous the lie becomes until finally it loses its power to hold you.

I remember reading somewhere that the urge to seek the Self arises from the Self, not from the ego, thus any effort expended in that direction is never wasted.

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2008, 09:11:19 AM »
Dear Graham,
                  Your response to mikroth's question is excellent.If anybody understands that fully he does not require to read further.Your response
must be printed with golden letters.It is so important.It conveyed all that Bhagawan wanted to convey.The language is simple and the message is lucid.
I request you to participate in the forum for the benefit of the members at least on the questions concerning self-enquiry.Thank you very much.
pvssnraju

Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
« Reply #25 on: August 25, 2008, 09:22:48 AM »
Dear mikroth,  Your post is really excellent.  As Graham said,
Bhagavan also prescribed a supplimentary enquiry, Whence am I?
after Who am I?  Both refer only to 'ahamkara' and not the 'thought'.
Wherefrom this thought arises?  Here, again the 'Where' is not
the PLACE  but the SELF, since "where" refers to 'Which'.  This
is the way in which  Sri Sadhu Om also intepreted.

At a dual level, most of us need a focal point.  This is the right side
Heart,  even though, Heart is everywhere, without in and out.
Even, the famous sloka, "Hryadaya Guhara madhye",  that is,
"In the centre of heart-cavee' also tends to point out the Heart,
at the right side of the chest.

Any one type of enquiry,  be it Who am I? or Whence am I?
is okay.  But it is not the place but of the 'thing.'

Arunachala Siva.       

Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
« Reply #26 on: August 25, 2008, 10:23:53 AM »
Dear mikroth,  Your meaningful first post made me to refer to
Sri Sadhu Om's book, The Path of Sri Ramana, vol.1. again/

First, in Tamil, Who am I? is 'Naan Yar'.  Here, the verb 'am'
is not there. 

Whether your mother tongue is Tamil or English, the confusion
is common.

Second, 'Who' refers to Atma or the Self,  'I' refers to the
individual soul or self mired in ego.  Who am I?  speaks about
the identity of the Self and the individual soul.  Again, Who am I?
like 'Soham' in Sanskrit, I am Brahman, is not a 'mantra' or sacred
word.  Who am I is simply an enquiry to find the source of the
mind or ego,  the Self.

Third, Whence am I?, that is, 'Wherefrom I?' directs you to
the Self, because here the word, 'Where' does not indicate
a place but the 'which' that is, the Self.

Arunachala Siva.       

mikroth

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Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
« Reply #27 on: August 25, 2008, 03:05:28 PM »
Deep thanks to you all for your helpful answers. I hope you won't mind if I return to this question,  by sketching the situation as I have met it :

'Who am I?' is conquering the Western world of too much thought... and as such is moving into many languages with the aid of instructors or helpers, for those who appreciate the support of others in satsanga in this eternal study.

In these groups (or those known to me), seekers -- many of whom are 'new' to this method of self-investigation, or who have tried more than one path in their search, are presented with the simple question to bring to mind, repeatedly.

What some find, is that this is all that is necessary to connect with self.

But many Westerners find that inevitably, thoughts arise... especially in a prolonged practice; which may be held in an atmosphere which is more jnani than bhakti ! For these, the 'subsidiary' question is offered for self-observation : quoted as 'To whom does this thought arise ?'

Please don't think what I am about to say is a quibble.. since we all know that 'grammar' has existed as a structure long before most spoken languages !

 'To whom does this thought arise' is simply not English grammar : we would need either 'In whom does this thought arise ?' or 'To whom is this thought directed?'

Now my feeling is, that both these questions are relevant to self-investigation : the first looks for the source of this 'I-thought'; the second exposes the ego-image or ahamkara that is trying to perpetuate itself.. (in this seeker, apparently innocent thoughts arise, but really directed to perpetuating an image of myself as a 'clever fellow; who's the first to ask intelligent questions... (Well, that brought me to this Arunachala website at least, sometimes ahamkara serves atman...!)

So I'm asking what more experienced seekers make of this grammatical question; since I hope I speak for many (slightly pedantic ?) English-language speakers for whom 'Who am I' has changed their lives, and who hope to pass this precious blessing on to others..

And apologies if I seem to be thrashing an innocent flea here... you may tell me when it's time for me to lapse into that eternal conversation of silence !

With much love for all,
Mikroth.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
« Reply #28 on: August 25, 2008, 03:59:47 PM »
My dear mikroth,  I am happy with your meaningful new post.
Be they westerners or orientals, the doubts arise everywhere,
because the Self does not make it easy for a particular set of
people in geography.

Now I shall explain with two or three examples:

1.  Bhagavan did not name his book, (or later someone named
it after consulting Him) as" Atma Vichara or An enquiry into the
 Self," because the Self cannot be enquired into!  Only the Anatma,
the nonself can be enquired into.  Hence He gave a new name,
Naan Yaar in Tamil, or Who am I? in English.

2. Bhagavan never said 'Whence' or 'Wherefrom', to mean
the 'place'.  He always meant, 'Whichfrom', if such a phrase can
be permitted in English.  For example, we ask, 'Wherefrom the
butter"?  A puritan English answer would be, 'from the milk-pot!'
But, everyone says, 'from the milk', meaning the Thing from which
the butter came and not the place.

3. Again the 'coming' and 'going' can be explained further, not
with this example, but with a different example.  When you see
snake, in the dark, which is really a rope, and when someone brings
'light' to enable you to see the rope, has the rope 'come' and the
snake 'gone'?  No, only one Thing is there.  As soon as the rope
is understood, the snake disappears.  Similarly, when you under
stand and enquire into the mind and its mischief making consort,
the ego, they disappear and the Self 'reveals'or the Self is understood!

3. When someone, who came from London, asked Bhagavan,
'Where I can go?', meaning how to realize the Self, Bhagavan
replied:  'Go to where you came from!'.  He did not mean definitely
London, the place, but the Self, the Thing, from which the ego
came. 

4.  Similarly, when some one asked, "Who am I?", Bhagavan
did not reply.  After several attempts, when the questioner
reframed the question, "Where is the Self?", He answered,
"The Self is there 'where' I is lost!"   Hereagain, the Self is
there in 'which' I is lost!

5.  Again, because the seekers wanted a place during the
practising period, He mentioned the right side of the heart,
which He called, the Heart. 

6. You may see from his Ulladu Narpadu, For verses on Existence,
the place is never mentioned.  Only in the Supplement to Forty
Verses on Existence, He mentioned a place for enquiry, by quoting
from Sanskrit poems called Ashtanga Hrudayam.

7.  All of us are seekers only, hence the place is important till
we know the Self.

Arunachala Siva.
     

nonduel

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Re: Self-enquiry-Surrender
« Reply #29 on: August 25, 2008, 04:30:41 PM »
Dear Subramanian-ji,

Thank you for that "enlightening" post.
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.