Author Topic: A criteria for spiritual progress  (Read 5311 times)

matthias

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Re: A criteria for spiritual progress
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2010, 11:18:36 AM »
very interessting topic.

you know that line of buddha: "there is no way to happiness, happiness is the way"

I understant it in two ways...

number one is: it is allready there

number two is: if we feel miserable along the way we will end up feeling miserable (permanent)
if we feel happy and good along the way, we will end up feeling happy (permanent)

now both ways lead nowhere

so what did the buddha mean?


« Last Edit: April 13, 2010, 11:23:15 AM by matthias »

Subramanian.R

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Re: A criteria for spiritual progress
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2010, 11:37:46 AM »
The Self, as silentgreen said, is Bliss.  Mind is not bliss. But
Mind wants bliss, in million odd ways, (like women, tobacco,
ice creams, picnics, cinemas, even books) and misses out the
true bliss.  In Sanskrit, these small blisses are santosham or
happiness and Sukam or Anandam is the true Bliss.

Arunachala Siva.

silentgreen

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Re: A criteria for spiritual progress
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2010, 04:53:33 PM »
The second way in "happiness is the way", seems to have been used figuratively like a highway.
A highway supports all vehicles which run over it, itself remaining the substratum.

The figurative highway is such that it is underlying all the roads.
So there is no way to reach the highway, since if you want to reach the highway you are trying to reach the highway by walking over it.

Then what is misery?
Looks like a vehicle which broke down, tyre punctures or the highway getting covered with snow.
In all the cases the highway is still there.
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

Vladimir

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Re: A criteria for spiritual progress
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2010, 08:54:09 PM »
Quote
Or do you mean in waking state permanent bliss is not possible.

Of course not. In any state nothing permanent possible. Only temporary. Otherwise it is not a “state”. Bhagavan was not a person in states. He is Bliss, he is impersonal consciousness.

Quote
- Self IS Bliss. So it must be "felt" as Bliss only, always. Do we "feel" it as it is, its true nature?

No. It must not be “felt”, because It IS Bliss. It is not an object of perception.

Quote
- Does spiritual practices add dirt of mind over the Self?

What people call “spiritual practices” can be very different. I don't think self-inquiry can add dirt of mind over the Self... though if a person try hard, nothing's impossible:)

What is the “dirt of mind”? Distrust to the Self. Mind dare not to admit even a hint that You Are the Self. Really. Even for 1%. Why to “feel Bliss”, You Are Bliss. Believe? Allow this thought to settle in mind. What tries to push it away?

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Saints have been doing spiritual practices for ages. Even to declare that "Self is Bliss", sages have done spiritual practices. The truths of the Vedas have taken centuries to be established. Have the sages increased the veil over the Self by doing spiritual practices?

Who told you about those saints, sages and ages? About maya, Vedas and spiritual practices? Who are you? Was it really told to You or to imaginary separate entity? Aren't you the One who created all this? If you say “I am the Self” trust what you say. Really. Once only.
Permanent Bliss – is a “kind” of bliss that can disappear only with “I am”, the beingness itself. Correct? If such a bliss recognized, yes, it is a sign of spiritual progress.

Quote
Do not treat it as serious arguments but joint discussions

Yes, yes. It is a simple discussion only. Just exchange of personal views. :) It's very nice of you. My great respect.

Vladimir

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Re: A criteria for spiritual progress
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2010, 09:02:35 PM »
Quote
Mind is not bliss. But
Mind wants bliss, in million odd ways, (like women, tobacco,
ice creams, picnics, cinemas, even books) and misses out the
true bliss.

If it's allowed to quate Nisargadatta:

"The ambitions of the so-called Yogis are preposterous. A man's desire for a woman is innocence itself compared to the lusting for an everlasting personal bliss. The mind is a chit. The more pious it seems, the worse the betrayal" -- from "I Am That" chapter 63.

silentgreen

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Re: A criteria for spiritual progress
« Reply #20 on: April 14, 2010, 08:52:58 AM »
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No. It must not be “felt”, because It IS Bliss. It is not an object of perception.

It IS Bliss, i.e. We are Bliss.
So why do Self-Enquiry? What is lacking?
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

Subramanian.R

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Re: A criteria for spiritual progress
« Reply #21 on: April 14, 2010, 10:54:14 AM »
Having attained the Self, one can never desire anything since he
has no mind-body consciousness. Such a desire, if at all it happens,
is the desire of the Self.  Kaduveli Siddhar married a dancer, begot a child etc., He did that without any desire,  but only to satisfy the desire of the dancer.

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Since we are all the Self, why should there be self enquiry at all?
The Self enquiry is only to remove the dirt that hides the Self.
The Self enquiry is basically an enquiry into the nature of non-Self.
It is Anatma Vicharam.  Atma does not need any Vicharam because,
where is the 'second' to do Vichara?

Arunachala Siva.

Vladimir

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Re: A criteria for spiritual progress
« Reply #22 on: April 14, 2010, 12:20:06 PM »
Quote
It IS Bliss, i.e. We are Bliss.
So why do Self-Enquiry? What is lacking?

Who is this "we"? If this "we" has no doubt in "We are Bliss", trust it completely, question of self-inquiry does not arise.
If I do not feel "the world inside me" but feel myself as a separate entity which belongs to the world, self-inquiry helps to figure out what is what.

Subramanian.R

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Re: A criteria for spiritual progress
« Reply #23 on: April 14, 2010, 01:34:44 PM »
Dear Vladimir,

This is what the first and second verse of ULLadu Narpadu tells
us.  We have seen the Verse 1.  We shall see the Verse 2 soon.

Arunachala Siva.

silentgreen

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Re: A criteria for spiritual progress
« Reply #24 on: April 14, 2010, 01:46:56 PM »
If everything is bliss, always, why does the "we" ever have a doubt that it is not bliss?
And self-enquiry is needed to find what is what.
After all, the "we" never has any doubt that it exists, and no enquiry is required to find that.
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

silentgreen

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Re: A criteria for spiritual progress
« Reply #25 on: April 14, 2010, 04:43:52 PM »
Thanks everyone for their inputs. It was a fruitful discussion. Let us end it here itself.
People have different ways of expressions but deep within is in touch with the same essence.
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

matthias

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Re: A criteria for spiritual progress
« Reply #26 on: April 14, 2010, 07:27:38 PM »
very important discussion, I liked it alot.