Author Topic: Ashtavakra Samhita a Discussion  (Read 45628 times)

ramanaduli

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 851
    • View Profile
Re: Ashtavakra Samhita a Discussion
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2008, 05:40:24 PM »
Dear srkudai


You say all maya is beautiful ...just live it.  But as we are self. the real bliss. we do not need any outside happiness is not it?
All through the ages, we were caught by this maya, enjoyed it, and it became the age old habits (vasanas). Now we came to know about Self is bliss. In that point why again we should go to Maya and fall into the net. Moreover as we are the Self, it does not need any happiness from outside which is always changable.  Because it is itself ANANDA. KHUD HI KHUDA HAI.  Here Ramana and Sankra are teaching due to the mind only all the suffering we have and they teach how to handle the mind.  This is my understanding.
Please express your view.


Ramanaduli

ramanaduli

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 851
    • View Profile
Re: Ashtavakra Samhita a Discussion
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2008, 08:48:22 PM »
Dear srkudai ji,


Unless we experience the Bliss, how we can express....  It is ok. Everyday we go to sleep with lots of worries etc.etc.inspite of every material things for what we struggled in life, we want sleep. From this we can make out our happines never comes from the outside object. After having good deep sleep, we feel fresh. but we can tell after waking only. Not during the sleep. In the same way, we cannot experience the essence during our waking state.  How to get uninterupped way...  Reading reapedly... doing sadhana..... hmmm...  no way



Ramanaduli

DRPVSSNRAJU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 546
    • View Profile
    • BE AS YOU ARE
Re: Ashtavakra Samhita a Discussion
« Reply #32 on: October 29, 2008, 07:35:09 AM »
Dear Ramanaduli,
                       We can experience the bliss in the waking state when there is stilling of thought.Bliss is already there in the waking state but is
clouded by thought matter.Once you recognise the bliss in the waking state then you will never loose your hold on it even when thoughts
arise which are needed in daily functioning.Thought may be there but you will always recognise the undercurrent of blissful awareness.
That blissful awareness is the basis,the source of thought,positing in that blisful awareness is the aim of self-enquiry.
pvssnraju

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47994
    • View Profile
Re: Ashtavakra Samhita a Discussion
« Reply #33 on: October 29, 2008, 09:27:12 AM »
Dear Ramanaduli,

Bliss can be expressed only in a non-bliss state!  A reverse example,
given by Bhagavan Ramana, was, that one can experience relief
only after the stomach pain is over and not during the stomach pain.
But, if one is always in Bliss, there is no need to express it.  Because
IT IS.  For example, again Bhagavan Ramana's example, if one
is having head ache, every day, all the time, then the sufferer does
not seek medicinde, because head ache is natrual to him!

Arunachala Siva.

ramanaduli

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 851
    • View Profile
Re: Ashtavakra Samhita a Discussion
« Reply #34 on: October 29, 2008, 06:55:35 PM »
Dear srkudai


There is awarness otherwise how I can come to know, that I have thoughts, bad and good, expectations, and low mood.
Now I understand that the problem with me .. it is due to my thoughts only. If I do not have thought i do not have problem. I think I always think, everything should go smoothly as I think. If it does not work out, I feel? bad. What is the reason.?  It seems all due to my "ego".  Is not it?  I realise now, I am doing everything with THE sense of doer -ship.
This doership brings, anxieties, when it happens it brings, happiness otherwise unhappiness.


Ramanaduli


ramanaduli

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 851
    • View Profile
Re: Ashtavakra Samhita a Discussion
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2008, 08:54:40 PM »
Dear srkuadi ji

Yes. If we close our eyes and watch the thoughts, it is all the suggestions. like, we have to do this and that.
Due to the prarabdha we took it is a command, a wrong decision and suffers If it is for self, the impact is not that much but
when others are suffering for our decision then everyone is suffering and life becomes hell. No body wants to
suffer. They think many times before doing. but sometimes it  becomes bitter. This time we have to remember Bhagavan's
saying whatever would happen, it would happen. No body can change. This is the destiny.When whole family suffers, I think
it is a collective karma. By self enquiry when we know we are the self, all play is due to the mind. so self never be touched by any thing.  it gives little peace for little while.


Ramanaduli

ramanaduli

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 851
    • View Profile
Re: Ashtavakra Samhita a Discussion
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2008, 10:19:46 PM »
Dear Raju ji,

You say even in our waking state also we have bliss. As our mind clouded so we cannot feel the bliss. Here I want to ask you, that  there is always non stop thoughts are going on. I know this position. Then I apply some thoughts for day to day life also I know this position. Some thoughts brings me happiness means without any confusion if everything goes on well.Somedays nothing will go in right way. so I get unhappiness.See all these things I aware. means there is one knower.
As it is always withme,  can I call it "SELF"
2ndly vedas and Bhagavan says, all happiness comes only from Self. But we think it is coming from outside objects.He gave one example ..i.e. the dog which bites the bone and gets wound in his mouth. Due to this it bleeds. But the dog things the blodd is coming from the bone so it happily goes on biting the bone.In the same way peole geting happiness from the self but they thinks it is coming from the world.  Without the mind if we feel then it is bliss. the objects which gives is called happiness. Therefore we can be without object,mind,body and world. Then we will be sada apramada full bliss.
Am I correct?


Ramanaduli

DRPVSSNRAJU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 546
    • View Profile
    • BE AS YOU ARE
Re: Ashtavakra Samhita a Discussion
« Reply #37 on: October 31, 2008, 06:13:39 AM »
Dear Ramanaduli,
                       The one who is aware in the dimension of relativity is called Jnata(seer)and the thing observed is called Jneyam(seen).
They are interdependent(Anyonyasraya) and both of them are part of the mind.Jnata is focussed object knowing consciousness.
The nature of self is that it is blissfully conscious of itself and exists independently.Jnatrutyam is a mental character and is not to be confused
with the self.Consciousness  is  directed in Jnata,so it is limited and anything directed will have a beginning and ending.In self conscious being
consciousness is not directed so it has no beginning and ending.The directionless consciousness which is blissful in nature undlies and supports
the apparent existence of seer(Jnata) and the seen(Jneyam).In self-enquiry the object knowing consciousness of Jnata is not required and we
go beyond Jnata and Jneyam at the same time and we touch and settle in the self.In the knowing of false(tranciency) as false there is the
revelation of eternal Truth.
2)We can exist without mind,body,world and we are experiencing this daily in deep sleep.If we can exist in the same state with awareness it is self,
Jagrat-Sushupti.
pvssnraju

ramanaduli

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 851
    • View Profile
Re: Ashtavakra Samhita a Discussion
« Reply #38 on: October 31, 2008, 03:14:37 PM »
Dear Raju ji


Thanks. I understood now, that while in deep sleep there is no mind. Without the mind we say, I had a nice sleep after waking from the sleep. From this situation, it is sure that, we can live without mind. As soon as we wake up, our mind starts its own play, till to the deep sleep, without stop. During the waking stage also there is the same witness who says "I slept well". Therefore during the waking time, whatever we say, like...I know, I did,  so this "I" is (seer) is Mind? This day time seer is different to the seer in deep sleep. Can you explain please.


Ramanaduli

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47994
    • View Profile
Re: Ashtavakra Samhita a Discussion
« Reply #39 on: October 31, 2008, 04:00:51 PM »
Dear Ramanaduli,

There is no day time Seer and night time Seer, there is no shift
work here, there is only one Seer, the Self.  Bhagavan Ramana
calls it:  Andham Ilak Kan, the deathless or endless eye!

What sees in the waking state is the mind.  What sees in the
dream state is also the mind.  What mind does not see, is deep sleep.
So, the mind is not permanent because the mind is not there in
deep sleep.  What is permanent is the Seer, the Self.

How mind sees in the waking state? For example, you know a
buxom young woman next door.  The door is closed.  You do not
see her with your eyes.   The bell rings.  The mind sees first.  Hence,
even before the door is opened, you see the girl.  Similarly, your wife
goes out to supermarket and comes back and tells you that she
has procured Rasagulla.  The pocket is not yet opened.  But your
mind is already seeing it and even before your taste it, saliva springs
from the mouth!  So is the case with music, a nice jasmine garland,
Intimate perfume, etc., etc.,

Arunachala Siva.   

ramanaduli

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 851
    • View Profile
Re: Ashtavakra Samhita a Discussion
« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2008, 05:29:25 PM »
Dear Raju ji,Srkudai ji, Subramaniyan ji

Thanks for the explaination. I feel very bad for my ignorance. Still I have doubts.  we are the awarness, Self. This is only experienced in deep sleep for a agjani., whereas jnani will experience in waking state also. Whatever we Identify with ourself. saying "I" it is seer. ok. This seer is coming through the mind. As mind is ever changable, therefore the the seer also never lives permanently. Whereas the consiousness is every where, always there. Can this consiousness say I am happy. If we do not need mind, then who is telling about the peace which is experienced in deep sleep.
If the mind comes to tell the feeling, then is not the real experience.Is it correct?
Whole day I am thinking to see the stage of my deep sleep. The "me" who is experiencing in waking state, is the same one say I slept well. Here I need to have mind to tell. So there is only one seer, the same one who is in waking and dreaming.  Am I correct. I do hope you would not mind to make me understand.


Ramanaduli

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47994
    • View Profile
Re: Ashtavakra Samhita a Discussion
« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2008, 06:13:13 PM »
Dear Ramanaduli,

The Self is "experiential"  and It is not 'a feeling'.   When you
sleep well at night, you tell about the sound sleep only next
morning, when your mind operates!  You do not tell that you
are sleeping well, during sleep.  Hence you have to only 'experience'
the Bliss of the Self and it cannot be described in words or felt. I have
already written in some post, it is like the experience of union
that the newly wed bride has got with her husband.  She does
not 'tell' others, even to her mother who anxiously wait for the
bride to come out of the nuptial room, she only "smiles" and her
mother!  That is why, the Upanishads say:

Where the words go and come back failing!

Arunachala Siva.
 

DRPVSSNRAJU

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 546
    • View Profile
    • BE AS YOU ARE
Re: Ashtavakra Samhita a Discussion
« Reply #42 on: October 31, 2008, 07:42:34 PM »
Dear Ramanaduli,
                       Very good question indeed.The basic form of self consciousness "I am" underlies all these thee states of the mind.
In the waking and dream states we superimpose adjuncts like body,intellect,thinking and object knowing upon our basic form of self consciousness "I am"
and thus we experience self consciousness in a distorted way as "I-am-the-body",I am thinking,I am knowing.This adjunct bound, so limited
distorted form of our self consciousness is a pseudoconsciousness which is mind.The relationship between the self and the mind is like rope
and snake,the snake is just we imagine to be.So all the three states of mind are mere imaginations.Self never becomes the mind.
Since the mind appears and disappears mind cannot be real.So anything known by it is not real.We witness the appearence and disappearence of the mind,we exist independent of it,hence mind as a seer(Jnata) cannot be the real "I".
When we experience contentless state of deep sleep we do not experience body or mind,so the consciousness is adjunctless, so without any limitation,
so it is self consciousness devoid of adjuncts except nescience(Avidya,self-ignorance) which veils the light of self conscious being.
In the waking state we mistake our mind and the gross body to be the "I".
In the dream state we mistake our mind and subtle body to be the "I".
In deep sleep state we mistake neither our mind nor body to be the "I" so the finite sense of "I" is devoid in deep sleep but we are under
the influence of nescience(Avidya,lack of self-knowledge) in deep sleep.Yet all these three states are experienced by "I amness" which underlies
all these three states.Mind comes into existence by superimposing imaginary adjuncts on this basic consciousnss of "I am".
That which really knows that I was asleep is not our mind but our real self consciousness.Mind usurps the experience and say "I know that i was asleep".
Deep sleep is something where we do not exist as mind.Deep sleep is thought action free state.Just because we do not do anything in deep sleep
we should not conclude that we do not exist or do not know anything.In deep sleep we have the knowledge of nothingness i.e absence of
objective knowledge due to the absence of mind.To know nothingness there must be consciousness,so sleep is a part our conscious experience
like waking and dream states and the undercurrent of self consciousness "I am" is there in all these three states.If we are devoid of all consciousness
it is not possible to know the deep sleep state at all.What enables us to cognise the sleep is the perpetual continuity of our fundamental
self consciousness "I AM" which endures uninterrupted through all these states.
Self-enquiry is a nonobjective state in which that which attends is itself that which attends to.Our aim is to hold this type of uncontaminated
pure self conscious blissfully aware being.


pvssnraju

ramanaduli

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 851
    • View Profile
Re: Ashtavakra Samhita a Discussion
« Reply #43 on: October 31, 2008, 09:00:57 PM »
Dear Raju ji and subramaniyan ji

Thank you very much. I have to study no. of times. Because when i read it seems. it is so easy and very clear. But if I close it again, the same state is there. I have been sleeping for all these years without any meaning. It is true without knowing ourselves, what is the point of knowing other things. The deep sleep itself teaching the whole upanishad, but I could not understand till to day. Another thing, this deep sleep also is unpredictable. Timings are also irregular. I do not know when it comes, whether before dream or after dream state. And not for long hours. It is not possible to know also, when we step into the deep sleep and when we comes out. It is like a merging slowly one state to another state. One thing I understood that is, we are unborn always exist. It is proved from the deep sleep. Even though the deep sleep is equal to death, but as the breath is there,we are not dead. So we are alive without body and mind. it is like a death where everyday it happens, When the body goes permanently, still our consiousness will be there. It will experience its own state. Is it?


Ramanaduli ,

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47994
    • View Profile
Re: Ashtavakra Samhita a Discussion
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2008, 09:35:18 AM »
Dear Ramanaduli,

Only one elaboration, on the last part of your post.  When the death
takes place, the mind takes the prana with it and goes away to take
a new "house" that is the body.  The Self is always there.  This is
explained in Who am I? by Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi.  The only
state where the breath continues, despite the mind being quiscent,
is sleep.  We can add swooning state and kevala samadhi state  also to this.  This is also mentioned in Who am I?

Arunachala Siva.