Author Topic: Ramana Maharshi’s actual experience is ajata though he Supports Simultaneous Cre  (Read 2061 times)

ramana_maharshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3557
    • View Profile
Sri Bhagavan says : ‘Without the seer, the seen, be they worlds or gods, cannot exist. All those objects of sight depend upon the seer. The purpose of all objects of sight is only to point to the seer. The purpose of all creation is verily to get at the creator.’

Sri Bhagavan clearly concluded his explanation in favour of simultaneous creation by saying: ‘Without the seer, the seen, be they worlds or gods, cannot exist. All those objects of sight depend upon the seer.’

The debate revolves around two Sanskrit terms, srishti-drishti vada and drishti-srishti vada. Srishti-drishti vada means the theory of gradual creation, that is, the theory that God created the world and the soul.

According to the theory of parinama vada, Brahman does not appear as the world and the soul, as a rope appears to be a snake, but undergoes a change and becomes them in the same way that clay becomes a pot. This theory maintains that Brahman has actually (and not merely apparently) undergone transformation and change. It also maintains that the effects, namely, the world and the soul, are as real as their cause, Brahman.

Drishti-srishti vada means the theory of simultaneous creation, and is also known as the theory of false appearance. According to this theory, Brahman is the sole reality that never undergoes any change, and the world, the soul and God are false appearances that rise into existence simultaneously with the seer. This theory maintains that all objects depend for their apparent existence upon the seer. Whereas in gradual creation, objects are seen because they have been created, in simultaneous creation, objects are created because they are seen.

The question of which creation theory is taught in Ulladu Narpadu has been answered by Bhagavan himself in verse 83 of the Garland of Guru’s Sayings.

Through the venba verse that begins, ‘Because we perceive the world...,’ Guru Ramana – who teaches the one true beneficial attainment [jnana] that is needed by the people of the world – declared, out of his love for us, the doctrine of illusory appearance to be the truth that bestows the ultimate benefit, avoiding the consideration of other doctrines.

In this verse Bhagavan states that since he wrote Ulladu Narpadu, it is understood that he teaches only the doctrine of false appearance, or simultaneous creation, and that he has set aside all other theories. It should also be clear from reading the text of Ulladu Narpadu that Sri Bhagavan is teaching that the seer and the seen rise together.

In verse seven it states, ‘Although the world and the mind rise and set together, it is by the mind alone that the world shines’ and in verse twenty-six it states, ‘If the ego comes into existence, all else will come into existence. If the ego does not exist, all else will not exist.’

Although Bhagavan taught the theory of simultaneous creation, this theory should not be elevated to the status of an absolute truth. Sri Bhagavan’s actual experience is ajata, which is a denial of all creation theories, simultaneous or otherwise, since it is the experience that neither the world, the soul nor God has ever come into existence. Ajata is the final experience, not a theory that can be taught, for there is no room in this experience for such differences as a teacher and a person to be taught.

Bhagavan’s teachings assume that we are aware that the world rises and sets with the rising and setting of the seer. The first words of Ulladu Narpadu are ‘Because we see the world’, and this assumption that we see the world becomes the basis for this teaching on creation. If he was intending to attempt to teach ajata, he would not have admitted the existence of the world at all, and if he had intended to teach gradual creation he would have said, ‘Because the world is created’.

Although Sri Bhagavan sometimes used to speak from the standpoint of gradual creation while replying to questioners, in his main works (for example, in Who am I?, in verses 6, 7, 14, 23 and 26 of Ulladu Narpadu, and in verses 6 and 7 of Arunachala Ashtakam), he clearly teaches only the theory of simultaneous creation. As he has explained in Self Enquiry in the answer to question 10, the theory of gradual creation is taught only for immature aspirants, while the theory of simultaneous creation is taught to mature aspirants. The same idea is expressed by him in Day by Day (15th March 1946) and in Talks no. 651 where he concludes: ‘But the true seeker can be content with yugapat srishti, instantaneous creation.’

The Ulladu Narpadu selection has been translated by Robert Butler, while the two Arunachala Ashtakam verses have been taken from Sri Arunachala Stuti Panchakam, Sadhu Om and Michael James’ translation of and commentary on Bhagavan's Arunachala poems:

6

The world is of the form of the five senses. It is nothing other. Those five senses are perceived through the five organs of sense. Since the mind alone perceives the world through the medium of the senses, can there be a world apart from the mind? Speak!

7

Although the world and the mind arise and subside together, it is through the mind that the world shines forth. That which is the perfection that shines without appearing or disappearing, as the place where both the world and the mind appear and disappear, is the Real.

14

If the first person exists, the second and third persons [you, he, she, it and they] will also be in existence. But if, upon one’s investigation into the reality of its nature, the first person is destroyed, the second and third persons will also cease to be, and one's own nature, shining alone, will be verily the state of the Self.

23

This body does not say ‘I’. And no one says ‘When I am asleep I do not exist’. After the ‘I’ arises, all else arises. Investigate with a keen mind whence this ‘I’ arises.

26

If the ego arises, all else will arise. If the ego is not, nothing else will exist. The ego, truly, is all. Know that simply to enquire what it is, is to renounce everything.

Arunachala Ashtakam 6

You, the Heart, the light of consciousness, the one reality, alone exist! A wonderful sakti exists in You as not other [than You]. From [it a] series of subtle shadowy thoughts [rise and] by means of [the reflected light of] consciousness in the whirl of prarabdha are [simultaneously] seen [as] shadowy world pictures, both inside [on] the mirror of the thought-light and outside through the [five] senses such as the eyes, just like a cinema picture which exists [by being projected] through a lens. O Hill of Grace, whether they [the world pictures] stop [appearing], or whether they continue [to appear], they do not exist apart from You.

7

If the thought ‘I’ does not exist, no other thing will exist. Until that [moment when the ‘I’-thought ceases], if other thoughts rise [one should enquire] ‘To whom do they rise?’ To me. [Then, by scrutinising] what is the rising place of ‘I’, merge [within]. Diving within [in this manner], if one reaches the Heart-throne [one will become] verily the Sovereign under the shade of one umbrella. [There] the dream known as ‘inside and outside’, the two karmas, death and birth, pleasure and pain, and darkness and light, will not exist, and the limitless ocean of the light of grace, called Aruna Hill, which dances motionlessly in the court of the Heart, alone [will exist].


Source: http://sri-ramana-maharshi.blogspot.com/2010/02/bhagavans-letter-to-ganapati-muni.html


Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46904
    • View Profile
Dear prasanth,

Very nice.  The dhristi-srishti vada, simultaneous creation theory
has been supported by Bhagavan Ramana.  It is also the theory
of Sri Sankara, as evident from Sri Dakshinamurty Stotram. 

But Kavyakanta Ganapati Sastri was the supporter of srishti-
dhrishti theory.  In fact, in one of his letters from Ananadasramam,
Sirsi, North Karnataka, he wrote to Bhagavan Ramana about it.
(the letter dated 3rd June 1931).  He says in that letter:  "There
is Iswara who is the Lord of Creation.  The Liberated has a personality.  Their experiences are the same and devoid of thoughts
and thoughtlessness.  This has become clear to us through your words.  Hence the argument that Sad Darsanam is giving scope
to drishti-srishti argument is annulled.  This answer inheres in
Sad Darsanam itself."

The fact is that Bhagavan Ramana's Sad Darsanam is expositing
only the drishti-srishti vada, the simultaneous creation theory.
Bhagavan must have wondered how could Nayana say that "the
argument that Sad Darsanam is giving scope to drishti-srishti
arguement is annulled."

Coincidentally, this is the point about which David Godman is giving his detailed Notes in his latest blog-letter, vide www.davidgodman.org.

These two theories are analyzed in detail in Panchadasi of Sri
Vidyaranya Swami, vide Chapter VI, CHITRA DEEPA.

More about these two theories, later......

Arunachala Siva. 

ramana_maharshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3557
    • View Profile
i agree Subramanian Garu,

but i had a small doubt when i mentioned the same in david godman blog regarding the statements mentioned by Adi shankara regarding creation.

I wonder whether he really spoke these or not as it seems he also supported srishti-dhrishti theory?

He says,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advaita_Vedanta

Now the question arises as to why the Supreme Lord created the world. If one assumes that Ishvara creates the world for any incentive, this slanders the wholeness and perfection of Ishvara. For example, if one assumes that Ishvara creates the world for gaining something, it would be against His perfection. If we assume that He creates for compassion, it would be illogical, because the emotion of compassion cannot arise in a blank and void world in the beginning (when only Ishvara existed). So Adi Shankara assumes that Creation is a sport of Ishvara. It is His nature, just as it is man's nature to breathe.

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46904
    • View Profile
Dear prasanth,

Both Adi Sankara and Bhagavan are the champions of dhristi-
srishti vada, simultaneous creation theory. 

But both Sri Sankara and Bhagavan who knew that Ajata is the
supreme truth, they actually taught the doctrine of illusory
appearance ( Vivarta Vada) as an explanation of the world manifestatgion since he knew that this would provide the maximum
practical benefit.  When a devotee truly understands that the
world is an illusory projection of the mind, his mind no longer
moves towards it.  When this happens, the mind goes back into
the Source and disappears, leaving the Ajata (no creation, no
dissolution) experience in which one knows directly that the world
never existed or was created excepting in the imagination.  The
doctrine of simultaneous creation is therefore a working hypothesis that enables the seeker to find the ultimate truth.

While Bhagavan Ramana occasionally stated that Ajata was the ultimate truth, (this was originally stated by Gaudapada in his
famous Kaarika for Maandukya Upanishad, vide Alata Santi, the
last chapter therein, and further commented by Sri Sankara in his
Kaarika Bhashyam) and which He sometimes said to theists that
God created the world.

For this purpose, it is said that Sankara used to tell a story,
as told by Brahmasri Nochur Venkatraman, in his Satsangh.
There was a mother who had a small baby which has to be fed.
The baby resists food.  So she starts telling a story.  There were
three children for A BARREN WOMAN. They all climbed the RAINBOW and reached the skies.  There they plucked FLOWERS FROM THE CLOUDS and wore them.  Then they all descended NEAR A MIRAGE
AND DRANK WATER! 

The baby listens to the story saying hm...hm... and takes fistful
of food each time and eats it completely.  Now for the mother, the
mother, the purpose is served.  Suppose the baby (is an advanced
Jiva like Hastamalaka), he will ask:  How can be three children for
a barren woman?   The story cannot be continued.  No story is needed for that baby.  It will eat food without any story from
mother, which he knows is all bullshit!

Arunachala Siva.     

ramana_maharshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3557
    • View Profile
excellent reply sir.

Thanks a lot.


Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 46904
    • View Profile
Dear prasanth,

Bhagavan Ramana has said in Who am I?:  What is Real is only
Atma Swarupam.  The world, the individual soul and the Iswara,
-- are all imaginations, like the silver in the oyster shell.

Since God (personal god) himself is imagination, naturally the
gradual creation, sustenance and the dissolution -- are also
imaginations.  But for practical purpose for the sadhakas in the
early stages, these have to be told.  Sri Sankara says in Sri
Dakshinamurty Stotram, the city seen in a mirror, these worlds
are seen by the individual soul, when the I projects out. Visvam
darpana....  Only I am Real and not the mirror and the city seen
in the mirror.  Is it not?

Arunachala Siva.