Author Topic: Question about all paths to realize the Self  (Read 5192 times)

m0j0

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
    • View Profile
Question about all paths to realize the Self
« on: January 16, 2010, 06:26:59 PM »
I was wondering, only 'I' exists and everything is a creation of the mind...Why does my mind create a path to follow/reach its own annihilation? Why 'I-ego' is presented with these teachings, which are thoughts/mind, like a suicidal manual, and try to kill itself. But now I realize questioning all this is like getting into a labyrinth with no exit. I will stay quite.
I am sorry if this question is somewhat very basic, I am what would be called a newbie?

Thank you

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47994
    • View Profile
Re: Question about all paths to realize the Self
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2010, 09:58:35 AM »
Dear m0j0,

The mind does not come about all of a sudden.  "It comes from the previous birth, when mind carries prana and goes out to take up a new birth as per God's allotment.  Mind is called Jiva and Sukshuma Sarira." (Who am I?).

The mind in a newly born child, carries only the Vasanas of the
previous births.  It does not add any new thoughts.  All new thoughts come about as and when the child grows. Look at a new
born child. Its eyes are not even steady.  It does not have a pointed look.  It is the mother who teaches the child.  The mother says:
Who am I?  I am your mother.  Who are you?  You are Hari... Like
this, the new additions take place into the child.  Then the mother
asks "Who are you?  You are Hari."  Then a doll is shown.  What is this?  It is a doll.  Whose doll is it?  It is Hari's doll. Then some golden bangles are placed in its hands.  Whose bangle are these?  It is Hari's bangle.  Thus the information is added to bring about thoughts, new thoughts...ad infinitum, ad nauseum.

As the child grows, he starts seeing people.  "Some are like me.  Some are different."  The different ones are called girls.  He, as he grows to 13 to 14 years, gets attracted to the girls.  Then the sexual impulses start.  Then eagerness to seek union with the opposite
sex.  Masturbation.  Pre marital sexual attempts.  Then marriage.  Then a job.  Then children.  Thoughts about wife, children, job, promotion, constructing a house, buying a TV, fridge, washing machine, sudden fear of pink slips.... Thoughts grow and multiply into a million thoughts.....

Now, the thoughts are the villain of the piece.  Mind is the villain of the piece.  Thoughtless state, mindless state gives peace.  This is evident from our sleep everyday.  Thoughtless state is a peaceful state. But the sleep does not do away with the mind once for all.
Next morning the mind, the "I" starts more vigorously.  So, at least for some, innate in understanding the Self, which is covered by the thoughts, mind, there is an effort to bring about thoughtless state....  This is the "seeking".  Thoughtless state is revealing the Self within.  Once you get past thoughtless state, permanently, one abides in the Self.

Thus, the whole processs, comes about starting from the vasanas of previous births.  Once a person kills the thoughts and then the vasanas, he is liberated.

It is not "a suicide manual."  On the other hand, it is a manual for breaking the shackles of mind.  Breaking the golden handcuffs that bind your hands from reaching the Self or God.  Here, the Guru comes and tells about how to break the golden handcuffs.  He does not break the handcuffs for you.  He just shows the way, as to how to break the golden handcuffs.  You have to break it with your own efforts and perseverence.  Once you succeed in the process, you are the Self, you are the God.  God and You are one without a second.       

Man is said to get fulfillment in a variety of ways.  But all these ways are not permanent fulfillment; they do not prevent new births.  They are all not full-proof methods to get the fulfillment which is real and complete.  Sexual union, (Read Vladimir Nabokov's Lolita), murder (Read the Rebel by Albert Camus), suicide/alienation (Read The Arrangment by Elia Kazan).  abducting someone and possessing (Read The Collector by John Fowls) the object.  This is the mystery of Jiva (individual soul which is nothing but mind and prana).

The solution lies in breaking the mind-body barrier that is between the individual soul and the Godhead.

The river's source is Ocean.  From the ocean's rain clouds, water pours down and rivers are formed.  This river wants to seek the Source back.  The river flows through thousands of kilometres and eventually merges in the ocean, which is the Source.  It is not river's suicide.  It is river's liberation to lose its identity and become one with the Source, the ocean.  (Sri Arunachala Ashtakam, Verse 8).
                       
Arunachala Siva.

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47994
    • View Profile
Re: Question about all paths to realize the Self
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2010, 02:04:12 PM »
Now I hear someone telling that mind gives thoughts and thoughts
give happiness, (forget about sorrows it gives, we shall talk only
about happiness) and so, why should we try to kill the thoughts that
gives happiness?

Yes. This happiness comes from outside, and this is due to your
thoughts.  "But Bhagavan says that all thoughts from the objective
world is only sorrow."  How come?

Let us analyse.  My wife suffers from h1N1 virus.  For 10 days
she suffers.  The doctors are non-plussed.  By some miracle,
she gets well.  Fine, I am extremely happy about it.  But supposing,
her health continues to be good and she lives for 120 years and
my health is good and I live for 125 years, still not kicking the bucket, are our lives happy?  We become old, incapable of even daily routine like taking a bath, always remaining in bed, no appetite,
no proper sleep, limbs weary and not able to perform.  Is it happiness?  Is the happiness, that I had derived when she had
escaped H1N1 virus attack, a few decades back, permanent?  NO.

Adoor Gopalakrishnan says that his happiness lies in listening good
music and watching Kathakali performance.  Suppose I place him
in a theatre, with all comforts, and make him to watch Kathakali
non-stop for 365 days, or make him listen to music non stop for
365 days, will he still be happy?  Will not this happiness become
a boredom soon and then transforms itself into a sorrow for him.
Will he not like to run away from the theater?  So all
happiness from the world is temporary.

It is "santosham" in Bhagavan's words.  But Atma gives you "Sukam", bliss, which is permanent.  There is no boredom.  No eagerness to get away or switch over to something else.

Bhagavan Ramana says that even when one attains the thing that
he wants or when a thing that he hates undergoes suffering, the mind returns to Atma to enjoy the Sukam.  This is impermanent.  Mind resting with Atma alone is Sukam, permanently.  When you get
a promotion in the office, you are happy for a couple of days. Friends give you a party etc., Even if your compoetitor does not get promotion in the office, (the second example of Bhagavan) you
get happiness.  Both are impermanent.

True happiness lies within.  This is not mere happiness, this is
Bliss. This is possible when the thoughts become quiscent or when
the mind curls up into the Self.   Then the world disappears.  Only
Atma remains.  Atma is Existence Knowledge and Bliss.

Vedanta philosphy says that happiness is the very core of our being.
Though we also seem to derive happiness from external objects or
experience, even after the object or experience is gained, we continue to search for further happiness.  (This shows it is impermanent.)

Arunachala Siva.   

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Question about all paths to realize the Self
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2010, 06:52:57 PM »
Dear I,

Jeevaatma has to merge with/into Paramaatma.

Now what this "merging" actually is, is a debatable topic for the Jeevatma/Saadhaka. The only instruction Bhagawan has given is to enquire "Who am I to whom these thoughts are arising to"; "who am I"

The rest what has to happen will happen, and let it happen, just stick to these teachings is our only duty or should be our only desire, why worry about what actually is "merging" is. Let it be what ever it is. Let us stick to our enquiry.

Bhagawan has said "The ordainer controls the fate of souls according to their destiny, what ever is destined to happen will happen, do what you many to prevent it and whatever is destined not to happen will not happen, try as you may to prevent it. The best course, therefore, is to remain Silent."

Salutations to Sri Ramana

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47994
    • View Profile
Re: Question about all paths to realize the Self
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2010, 09:01:00 AM »
Bhagavan answers the Question No. 15 to Sivaparakasam Pillai,
in Who am I?, as under:-

15. How long should enquiry be practised?

Bhagavan:  As long as there are impressions of objects in the
mind, so long the enquiry "Who am I?" is required.  As thoughts
arise they should be DESTROYED then and there, in the very
place of their origin, through enquiry.  If one resorts to contemplation of the Self unintermittently, until the Self is gained,
that one would do.  As long as there are enemies within the fortress,
they will continue  to sally forth; if they are DESTROYED as they
emerge, the fortress will fall into our hands.

Again for Question No. 13, Bhagavan Ramana says:

13. The residual impressions (thoughts) of objects appear unending like the waves of an ocean.  When will all of them get DESTROYED?

Bhagavan: As the meditation on the Self rises higher and higher,
the thoughts will get DESTROYED.

Now, there was no need for Bhagavan Ramana to use the word,
"destroyed"  -- if the thoughts are mere suggestions not not
villains who need to be destroyed.

Arunachala Siva.       

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Question about all paths to realize the Self
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2010, 10:19:29 AM »
Dear I,

When Jeevaatma ceases, Paramaatma is. There are not two Selves in reality! But the Paramaatma would never have a need to say that it itself is Paramaatma, who is 'I' that says it is Paramaatma?"

A visitor asked Bhagavan, “What is the difference between the mind and the Self?”

Bhagavan: There is no difference. The mind turned inwards is the Self; turned outwards, it becomes the ego and all the world. The cotton made into various clothes, we call by various names. The gold made into various ornaments, we call by various names. But all the clothes are cotton and all the ornaments gold. The one is real, the many are mere names and forms. But the mind does not exist apart from the Self, i.e., it has no independent existence. The Self exists without the mind, never the mind without the Self.

Kaivalya Navaneeta has asked and answered six questions about maya. They are instructive.

The first question is: What is maya? And the answer is: It is anirvachaniya or indescribable.

The second question is: To whom does it come? And the answer is: To the mind or ego who feels that he is a separate entity, who thinks: ‘I do this’ or ‘this is mine’.

The third question is: Where does it come from and how did it originate? And the answer is: Nobody can say.

The fourth question is: How did it arise? And the answer is: Through non-vichara, through failure to ask: who am I?

The fifth question is: If the Self and maya both exist does not this invalidate the theory of Advaita? The answer is: It need not, since maya is dependent on the Self as the picture is on the screen. The picture is not real in the sense that the screen is real.

The sixth question is: If the Self and maya are one, could it not be argued that the Self is of the nature of maya, that is illusory? And the answer is: No; the Self can be capable of producing illusion without being illusory. A conjuror may create for our entertainment the illusion of people, animals and things, and we see all of them as clearly as we see him; but after the performance he alone remains and all the visions he had created have disappeared. He is not a part of the illusion but is real and solid.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Question about all paths to realize the Self
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2010, 10:29:23 AM »
Dear I,

There is nothing against the points mentioned by you. But who is the one that has this knowledge?

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Question about all paths to realize the Self
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2010, 10:37:49 AM »
Dear I,

That fellow who is mithya, who is writing here, talking here, doing all these, has to go. The appearing and vanishing has to go. it is verily the same 'fellow' who is also saying "how does it matter?"

Mind is not to be killed, it has to cease. there is no killing or destroying.

You say -
Quote
" when it is not alive, why and how to kill?" 
how come these thoughts are going on when you say it is not alive?

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Question about all paths to realize the Self
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2010, 10:39:50 AM »
Dear I,

Who is the one that knows

Quote
  when it is not alive, why and how to kill?"

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Question about all paths to realize the Self
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2010, 10:44:38 AM »
Dear I,

That is the enquiry all about! Who is the 'I' ?

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Question about all paths to realize the Self
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2010, 10:48:19 AM »
Dear I,

How do you say -

Quote
  Exactly ... why cease it when its not moving at all ? that movement is mithya. non-existent!
Its like saying  "make the sky white!" or "The blueness has to cease" ! what is not there cannot cease !

is it not moving here? by giving out these thoughts? If it is not moving, how can you say it is non existent?

Who are you? 'I' ?

Salutations to Sri Ramana

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Question about all paths to realize the Self
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2010, 05:17:08 PM »
Dear I,

I am just putting focus on...

Who is the one whom the sky is appearing, be it blue or white,

Who is the one who is questioning
Quote
Therefore I should make the sky white!
let me try!

what happens??

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta