Author Topic: The Witness of the Movie  (Read 24886 times)

Nagaraj

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #45 on: January 13, 2010, 10:59:36 AM »
Thats the Ignorance Avidya

Please introspect and see for yourself

My argument ends here.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #46 on: January 13, 2010, 01:27:48 PM »
Dear I,

You are welcome to your thoughts.... your body, your plate, your property, your food everything! You seem to know very well about what is good and what is bad! you have all choices to select what food you want to take!

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2010, 03:35:37 PM »
Dear I,
 :)

Definitely, as I already mentioned in some posts between our discussions, that this is positive and constructive discussion. There is no victor or loser in the end, if at all there is any victor or a loser, its simply for the ego/mind/thoughts.
 
I do not contest the points you have mentioned, in the small and sweet illustrations of yours :) they are all true, and form a good Satsang.

How a realized person is, cannot at all be known. even that "a Realized person does not mean he should remain with closed eyes, never write blogs etc. What ever is the prarabdha that shall continue the body and mind equipment. he himself remains ever as the Self. A particular lifestyle does not make someone wise." is also a thought right? :)

What I was trying to convey is that - Who holds this idea? or thought? that a realized person can also be like this.... He has to be enquired :)

What I saw is that this person is verily Mind itself, thoughts themselves. Which is why I mentioned about the example of Sushupti or Deep sleep, why is there nothing in deep sleep, what about the blogs, writing, eating and all? it is not here in deep sleep? But we know the one that is existing is constant in all the three states - Jagrat Swapna and Sushupti. Let us call this as consciousness, and this consciousness was there in deep sleep, but the ideas and thoughts about writing and other actions did not exist at all in deep sleep or Sushupti :) then how come all these arise in Jagrat - Waking or Swapna - Dream states? why not in Sushupti? Therefore these ideas, thoughts are truly not the consciousness. as it was not there in Sushupti.

Here is what my argument was, that these arise in Jagrat and Swapna states because there is thoughts, mind, ego but the same thoughts, mind, ego did not exist in Sushupti.

What is there in Sushupti is there in Jagrat and Swapna as consciousness. We agree that this consciousness is absolutely changeless right :) but then during Jagrat and Swapna some thing pops up right? doing all these? these thoughts and all? This is Ego, Mind, Thoughts :) which are not there in Sushupti.

Which is why all that is happening is just thoughts. The You or 'I' that is seen only in Jagrat and Swapna is this mind, ego, thought, limited - 'I' but in deep sleep or Sushupti, there is none of all these, there is even no I, The Consciousness which is there at all states does not affirm itself during Sushupti right? :) were there thoughts then? No? Because the one who is holding these thoughts did not exist during Sushupti. who holds these thoughts during Jagrat and Swapna? that is the You - 'I' - I was talking about. This 'I' is just thoughts, Mind, ego, I.

Regarding the Yours-Mine, Everything happens only in the realms of thoughts. Where am I to you? it may be that you see me and are replying to me, but I am not in your mind? what I am writing here, the mind takes it and the mind itself responds? Where am I to you? am I separate from you? what ever I am saying here, is not the mind that is conveying what it understands? the mind is only telling what it has understood :) what it has understood is just its own thoughts? based on its own pre-conceived notions. In this way, everything is just thoughts there is nothing perceivable apart from thoughts themselves. I am also a thought only to you and you to me.

When I say 1+2=3. the mind checks with its previous notions if 1+2=3 if it is yes then it agrees other wise it says it is wrong because its very notions are being questioned. :) If I say 1+2=1, and then the mind when it checks this, does not agree, its beliefs and notions are put to test. is this - '1' '2' '3' '+' yours and mine differently? are they not the same? there cannot be your '1' and my '1'

what the thoughts/ego/mind/I want is simply fuel to confirm its belief patterns and notions. anything that questions its beliefs and notions it tries to rebel.

But all these do not exist during Sushupti. and the one in Sushupti Jagrat and Swapna is same all the time. But during the jagrat and Swapna, thoughts pop up i.e. ego/mind/I

:)
Salutations to Sri Ramana


« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 03:40:54 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

ramanaduli

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #48 on: January 13, 2010, 03:38:18 PM »
I think. one way it is good to have mind and the thoughts. If we do not have mind then we may be lying on bed like a coma patient. If we do not have thoughts then we become like autism person. It is my understanding that, when we realise our suffering and think why we are suffering. This is also thought but it is good thought because this sort of thought would lead to find out the correct answer. That how Ramana's thought helped Him and found out the answer. Like Him we all are having good thought and joined this forum, discussing. Upto this point our thought is a good and helping to find out the answer. As we are a healthy  person who are having healthy mind and body, we are trying to find out about the thought. Actually speaking, our thoughts are all coming up from our own mind. So our mind, our thought and we are all one. All these are seen on our own consiousness like a image on the cinema screen. If there is no screen nothing is possible to be seen. Thoughts never stay permanently it comes and goes but the consiousness is always exisits. So we are the consiousness ever exists always. In deep sleep there is no mind so there is no thoughts and we are very happy. But we realise after waking up the happiness where during the sleep we never feel. Every creature is having this experience but Jnani during waking state also he lives in the same condition like in deep sleep where we cannot do. we forget due to our
latent vasans and prarabdha. To have 24 hours that same conditions, we always should ask ourselves To whome it happens. As Bhagavan says, if we ask as soon as the thought pops up it will go to its starting point i.e. mind. As Bhagavan says, we should be like a stick which burns the corpse. At the same time we should pray for His grace also. Without His grace nothing is possible. In the begining we may have millions questions. all are thoughts only. If we watch our own thoughts slowly it will die away. Before puting it, just posephone it. Thoughts will loose the grip.

This is my understanding after joining this forum. It is also Bhagavan's grace to discuss with experienced people like, srkudai ji, Subramaniyan ji and Raju ji.
We need lots of practice only watching our own thoughts. So far we are watching other man's thoughts and justify,  appreciates, liking disliking all are thoghts only which we cannot avoid. But through vichara margam, we can watch our own thoughts like movie. It avoids lots of unnecessary unwanted situations.


Ramanaduli

Subramanian.R

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2010, 05:13:14 PM »
Dear Ramanaduli,

Living without the mind is not comatose or atuistic.
Living without thoughts is not comatose or atuistic.
These are all states of different kinds.

Coma is a state, where there brain signals temporarily suspend
  functioning due to some syndrome.
Atuism is where the mind is fractured but not dead.  A
fractured mind is sickness.  Permanently abiding in no-mind is Jnanam. If the word "no-mind" is troubling you, then have it as "no-thought."

Arunachala Siva.

ramanaduli

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2010, 05:59:48 PM »
When the thought arises. ok I witness my thought? I use my bhudhi whether is it necessary to act immedietly or not? If it is very necessary, then I ask with
what basis I react whether expecting any profit from that. Finally coming to the conclusion it is not selfish act, no expectation out of the action. After all the analysis can u call it this thought came from pure mind.  If there is manonasam, how the action would take place. Here Udai ji would say, be an actor. It if fine
being an actor, and doing the actions, without any expectation, and doing samarpanam the result to God. is the pure mind? Hope you would explain.


Ramanaduli

silentgreen

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2010, 06:29:22 PM »
With pure mind, the pure consciousness is always felt as the substratum in the heart, irrespective of whether thoughts are there or not. In the language of the devotee, the whisper of the divine is felt in the heart.
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

Nagaraj

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #52 on: January 13, 2010, 08:47:14 PM »
Dear I,

Observe this?
Essentially what i am presenting is straight forward. that which is of the mind will remain in the mind. that which is outside the mind will remain outside the mind! There is nothing anyone can do abt this.

Actually, there is nothing outside the mind and of the mind, what you see as outside the mind and inside the mind is just the same mind. There is just the mind alone. There is nothing anyone can do about it - Very true. Now this is actually the essence of Sharanagati. A sense of giving up. The mind realises its real nature, the nature of its limitedness. This is the sense of Humbleness.

Now, here is where, we have to apply what Krishna has said in the Gita:

tad viddhi pranipatena
pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti te jnanam
jnaninas tattva-darsinah

Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master. Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him. The self-realized soul can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the truth.

This kind of submissive is attained only after realising the limitedness of the 'I' thoughts. This is in reality true Sharanagati. A sense of bowing down due to its own limitedness.

Bhagawan, has explained very clearly, to exactly the same question you raised:

"That which makes the enquiry is the ego, the 'I' about which the enquiry is made is also Ego, as a result of enquiry, Ego ceases to exist and only Self is found to exist"

This ego has to cease! The maximum the ego, mind can do is only attain the realisation of its own reality - Limitedness.

This 'I' has to merge, Bhagawan has said:

"The Mind will merge only by self enquiry" It has to merge - it has to cease

He further says:

"Where the 'I' merges, another entity emerges as 'I-I' of its own accord, that is the perfect Self" and not this 'I'

which is what I observed, that even though 'I' reads Ribhu Gita, Ashtavarka Gita, Avadhoota Gita and keeps affirming that it is Brahman etc... is still only a thought to it right? other wise it will not tell that thoughts cant affect it for it itiself is the very thought.

"Where the mind merges, another entity emerges" itself very clearly says that Mind has to go - this is Manonasam. When this happens, in its place the perfect self is found. And when the Perfect Self arises as 'I-I' there you - Mind as not there to see the perfect Self - this is the essence of manonasam - this again is just a thought to the mind now.

This mind cannot know that perfect Self. For it has to cease for perfect Self to arise in its place.

This is what Bhagawan has said:

"First the Self sees itself as objects, then the Self sees itself as void, and finally, it sees itself as Self, here there is no seeing as seeing is being"

So when, mind reads Ribhu Gita, Avadhoota Gita, it is just is still seeing the Self as a perfect being, as some state(First the Self sees itself as objects), then on attaining its reality of its realisation of its limitedness, it sees void(then the Self sees itself as void):  
Quote
There is nothing anyone can do abt this.

and then, it has to now cease to exist. it has to get merged for the perfect Self to arise as 'I-I' which it will not be there to know! for here there is no seeing as it is being. When Mind ceases, Pefect self is (and finally, it sees itself as Self, here there is no seeing as seeing is being)

Salutations to Sri Ramana




« Last Edit: January 13, 2010, 09:21:48 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #53 on: January 14, 2010, 12:50:37 PM »
To add something to the already long back and forth volley of
posts:-

This is from Day by Day of Devaraja Mudaliar.

On 2.1.1946, Mr. Joshi has submitted what Bhagavan calls a question
paper and Bhagavan answered the same.

Bhagavan:  First about the Jnani's doing work, without the mind.
"You imagine that one cannot do work if the mind is killed.  Why
do you suppose that it is the mind alone that can make one do work?
There may be other causes which can also produce activity.  Look
at this clock, for instance.  It is working without a mind.  Again
suppose we say that the Jnani has a mind.  His mind is very different from the ordinary man's mind.  He is like the man who is hearing a story told with his mind all on some distant object.  The mind rid of vasanas, though doing work, is not doing work.  On the
other hand, if the mind is full of vasanas, it is doing work, even if the body is not active or moving.

(Source:  As indicated above)

Arunachala Siva.   

amiatall

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #54 on: January 14, 2010, 04:52:26 PM »
Dear Subramanian.R,

This is true and
only if experienced this can be understood. But if trying to explain this is of no avail. As we see in these and earlier discussions.
One must experience - the doing without doing, the doing without thoughts. It's like a bird singing without thinking, flying without thinking before/after actual event. The bird just is.
An event happens without thought at any level - this is a fact, thinking arises before/after event - this is a fact as long as thinker exists. But in reality an action can happen even without thinking before/after an actual event. It just happens. And not even iota of any kind of entity is involved. It is called non-doership. Again, like baby is being fed but is not aware that 'I am drinking a milk', though there can be an awareness that he is being fed.


Nagaraj

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #55 on: January 14, 2010, 08:03:07 PM »
Dear I,

But in reality an action can happen even without thinking before/after an actual event. It just happens. And not even iota of any kind of entity is involved. It is called non-doership. Again, like baby is being fed but is not aware that 'I am drinking a milk', though there can be an awareness that he is being fed.

What you say is just as good as the Swapna (State) or dream state. Its like some events take place in your dream, themselves involuntarily, where You are not here physicallly, but events take place.

So long You are able to perceive the so called events, the perceiver has to be enquired, who is perceiving these events, who is it that is perceiving that these events are taking place without even thinking and doing? That is very important!

It is just like a sleep with dream, you are there before you slept and then you are there when you wake up. This is just as good as a dream.

The subtle thing to notice here is that, the Mind/Ego/Thought/I is trying to identify a way out that events take place themselves without actually its own involvement so that It - Mind/Thoughts/Ego/I can just continue for ever.

These things, which the mind says - thinking without thinking, doing without doing, etc... How is it able to know this? is not there an entity who is cognising all these events? this entity is mind/thoughts/ego/I itself. Otherwise, how is it able to tell that events are taking place without actually any involvement? In the end what is the real consequence to the entity who is able to cognise all these so called - Thinking without Thinking, Doing without Doing, etc...

What does it matter to the entity whether the events take place or not? how does it affect it? what does it want out of these events? Even if it is involuntary? So long it is able to cognise these involuntary events, there is Mind/Thoughts/Ego/I - difference - Witness and Witnessed.

In the end these are just thoughts themselves again, Thoughts just generate thoughts after thoughts so that it can continue by creating many hypotheses in such ways so that it can remain a witness for ever - as in keep watching movies for ever, keep watching thoughts, thoughts watching thoughts!

Who is this entity? Who is the 'I' to whom all these thoughts are arising? Who am I

Salutations to Sri Ramana
« Last Edit: January 14, 2010, 08:05:10 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

amiatall

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #56 on: January 14, 2010, 11:56:51 PM »
At any level you are right. No matter how many times you try to speak out, it is only on mental level.
You talk only about dream and waking state, but how about deep sleep? Who is there aware of Itself? Can That be answered?

This question - who am i? is the purpose of these appearances you talk about. This question is the purpose of existence itself. That's why there is existence as such. It is a cause of it.
The point to be grasped here is that the witnessing happens without any effort on your part. That is - there is no-one in control to make witnessing happen or not happen.
There is no entity as you would like it to be and then disappear or whatever.
The problem arises when the center is formed out of thoughts which feels itself because it borrows the subjectivity of Absolute (which again is You). Thoughts can't know You as world can't know senses. Only you can know thoughts. And in reality you are That always which appears as This (world).
No-thing ever is, then the Knowledge comes. That's why you know that you know.
And because of Knowledge Self-realization (as it is called) is Possible.
It means that the question who am I? can only be answered through ever expanding Knowledge but not in a limited sense. An answer can't be defined in limited sense of mind.
Now we ask, to whom this Knowledge comes? And it will be known that to no-one it comes. And it needs not come because You yourself IS the Knoweldge. You are whole, complete and not separate like you imagine yourself to be. You are That.
What about individual self which is body-mind-intellect-ego which we consider to be us? This so called 'entity' is nothing more but a reflection Which is caused by Consciousness shining on bundle of experiences-impressions making up our minds. If experiences of past were positive our minds will be peaceful, if negative then our minds will be resentful and despairing. Thus, the ignorance is mental and emotional that arises because of identification with the mind i.e. the past. To experience and know our true, immediate, self-evident nature, the mirror of the mind should be clean and undistorted.
What is to be done? We can refer to shankaracharya work and conclude that:
To purify the mind we need to become mindful of Self ignorance by watching our thoughts, monitoring our feelings, and observing our speech.  After examining a particular misconception discard it as “not Self.”  The verse calls for “constant” practice of Knowledge because Self ignorance continually manifests in our Consciousness as the four following limiting concepts, major limbs on the tree of non-apprehension from which myriad minor branches grow.
These self-limiting concepts, referred to as “not Self” are:
1. I am the body
2. I am the mind
3. I am the intellect
4. I am the Ego

It does not mean that an entity must do something. It means that Knowledge works on Knowledge. That is all.
Everything bathes itself in Awareness which is all-round, available any time, whether you assume yourself as waker, dreamer or sleeper.

Nagaraj

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #57 on: January 15, 2010, 07:59:55 AM »
Dear I,

I/mind agrees to most of what you have conveyed in your post, but I would like to point out the subtle-ness of the ego/mind...

The point to be grasped here is that the witnessing happens without any effort on your part. That is - there is no-one in control to make witnessing happen or not happen. There is no entity as you would like it to be and then disappear or whatever.

What I/mind is tying to point out is this - "The point to be grasped here is that the witnessing happens without any effort on your part." - it is again the same mind/ego which is concluding thus? please see introspect? Thoughts are building upon itself. It is only the mind/thoughts. It itself concludes that - "there is no-one in control to make witnessing happen or not happen." and again it is the same I/mind that concludes - "There is no entity as you would like it to be and then disappear or whatever."

Quote
The problem arises when the center is formed out of thoughts which feels itself because it borrows the subjectivity of Absolute (which again is You). Thoughts can't know You as world can't know senses. Only you can know thoughts. And in reality you are That always which appears as This (world).

Is it not again the same mind/thought/ego/I that is even concluding how the problem arising, and is it not itself giving out a reason - "when the center is formed out of thoughts which feels itself because it borrows the subjectivity of Absolute (which again is You). Thoughts can't know You as world can't know senses. Only you can know thoughts. And in reality you are That always which appears as This (world)."

By this what is happening is that by giving out such possible probable conclusions, the mind/ego/I forgets itself. Who is the 'I' that is coming out to such conclussions? This is more important than to analyse why the problem is arising. The very entity enquiring is Mind itself.

Quote
And because of Knowledge Self-realization (as it is called) is Possible.
It means that the question who am I? can only be answered through ever expanding Knowledge but not in a limited sense. An answer can't be defined in limited sense of mind.

all these points are so subtle, it is the same mind/thought that is concluding "It means that the question who am I? can only be answered through ever expanding Knowledge but not in a limited sense. An answer can't be defined in limited sense of mind." all though it is aware of its own limitedness -  "An answer can't be defined in limited sense of mind." So on one had it is aware that it cant know but still persists indulges in more and more thoughts.

Quote
Now we ask, to whom this Knowledge comes? And it will be known that to no-one it comes. And it needs not come because You yourself IS the Knoweldge. You are whole, complete and not separate like you imagine yourself to be. You are That.

Is it not the same mind/thought/I that concludes - "And it will be known that to no-one it comes. And it needs not come because You yourself IS the Knoweldge. You are whole, complete and not separate like you imagine yourself to be. You are That. "

It is the Mind/ego/I/thought itself that is saying that "You are That" - By saying thus, the mind/thought/I/ego is just able to continue for eternity - this is the agenda of Mind/thought.

Quote
What about individual self which is body-mind-intellect-ego which we consider to be us? This so called 'entity' is nothing more but a reflection Which is caused by Consciousness shining on bundle of experiences-impressions making up our minds. If experiences of past were positive our minds will be peaceful, if negative then our minds will be resentful and despairing. Thus, the ignorance is mental and emotional that arises because of identification with the mind i.e. the past. To experience and know our true, immediate, self-evident nature, the mirror of the mind should be clean and undistorted.
What is to be done? We can refer to shankaracharya work and conclude that:
To purify the mind we need to become mindful of Self ignorance by watching our thoughts, monitoring our feelings, and observing our speech.  After examining a particular misconception discard it as “not Self.”  The verse calls for “constant” practice of Knowledge because Self ignorance continually manifests in our Consciousness as the four following limiting concepts, major limbs on the tree of non-apprehension from which myriad minor branches grow.
These self-limiting concepts, referred to as “not Self” are:
1. I am the body
2. I am the mind
3. I am the intellect
4. I am the Ego

Is it not again the same mind/thoughts that is working out some answers here? "This so called 'entity' is nothing more but a reflection Which is caused by Consciousness shining on bundle of experiences-impressions making up our minds. If experiences of past were positive our minds will be peaceful, if negative then our minds will be resentful and despairing. Thus, the ignorance is mental and emotional that arises because of identification with the mind i.e. the past. To experience and know our true, immediate, self-evident nature, the mirror of the mind should be clean and undistorted."

Quote
What is to be done? We can refer to shankaracharya work and conclude that:
To purify the mind we need to become mindful of Self ignorance by watching our thoughts, monitoring our feelings, and observing our speech.  After examining a particular misconception discard it as “not Self.”  The verse calls for “constant” practice of Knowledge because Self ignorance continually manifests in our Consciousness as the four following limiting concepts, major limbs on the tree of non-apprehension from which myriad minor branches grow.
These self-limiting concepts, referred to as “not Self” are:
1. I am the body
2. I am the mind
3. I am the intellect
4. I am the Ego

Please see, why the need is arising "What is to be done?" to whom is it arising? is it not arising to the mind itself? so mind itself is deciding that it should read Adi Shankaaracharya, etc...

It is again the Mind/Ego/thought/I that examines so called misconceptions and discards thoughts as "Not-Self"

What is most important is that the thought forgets that it itself is the Mind/Thought/I instead what it does is go externally, analyse, examines scriptures etc,.. and arrives at come conclusions etc... so that it can keep going.

The questions/answers themselves are the problem! The Mind/thought/I/Ego is nothing but questions and answers.

And it is important to know that the one that one who will again be trying to stop these questions and answers is just thoughts/mind itself.

Please see, how subtly, the Mind/thoughts/Ego is going outwards. This reply when you read is again thoughts/mind.

The only duty the Mind or desire or doing it can do is that to stick to only this alone:

"Who am 'I' to whom these thoughts are arising?" is the only thing to be done after the mind/thoughts/I realises its own reality - its limitedness.

the maximum the mind/thought/ego can do is to realise its own limitedness and remain humble and this is true Sharanaagati! When this has been realised, the very need to anslyse further will end for the Mind/thoughts and then Mind/thoughts will humbly stick to "Who am I to whom these thoughts are arising to?"

All these are all again thoughts/Mind.

I/Mind/Ego/Thought admit that my responding to these thoughts, I/Mind/thoughts are just building further on thoughts. All these questions and answers are just a fuel for thoughts.

"Who am I to whom these thoughts are arising?"

Salutations to Sri Ramana

« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 08:11:26 AM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

amiatall

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #58 on: January 15, 2010, 12:43:52 PM »
The subtlety of which you speak is clear as the sky. But there is no other way to communicate. (there is heart-to-heart).
Now, let us remember a few different forum posts back when we started to interact with each other, it has been said:
"..Yes. But we can play with concepts all we want."
And so far we have been doing this all the time. And will do so for some time. Until an understanding will arise that limited will stay limited and unlimited will stay unlimited, in realization only an interaction between limited and unlimited will be grasped.
Why discussion at all? Because you have a concept of something ( a conclusion ) and with one you discuss has a concept of something (a conclusion), and this conclusion is "how the things must be". But it will not be so and it isn't. Minds nature is to conclude. Who concludes Mind or Self? The answer is obvious. To whom answer is obvious or not obvious? This is too obvious.
This is a circle.
Now, that which sees this Mind in play is not a Thought. This is not to be understood, this is a Fact to be Aware Of. The ultimate Seer never was a thought and never will be a thought. You cannot be a thought.
Subject and Object plays out a game in Your Light.

Nagaraj

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #59 on: January 15, 2010, 01:36:40 PM »
Dear I,

Nothing much to contest in your pot. Just that:

Now, that which sees this Mind in play is not a Thought. This is not to be understood, this is a Fact to be Aware Of. The ultimate Seer never was a thought and never will be a thought. You cannot be a thought.

Subject and Object plays out a game in Your Light.

My intention is to not keep the cycle going on and on... It is endless. But still, what ever fact it may be, that - "Now, that which sees this Mind in play is not a Thought. This is not to be understood, this is a Fact to be Aware Of. The ultimate Seer never was a thought and never will be a thought. You cannot be a thought. " What I say is that - "Now, that which sees this Mind in play is not a Thought." still remains a thought now! The fact to be aware of it is just knowledge. That the ultimate seer was never a thought and never remains a thought is knowledge.

So long you are aware of so called ultimate seer, it is just thought. As awareness, what is there to to be aware off?

Who has this knowledge? is it the Self or You? Does the Self require any knowledge? but then who is having the knowledge of the ultimate seer then? it is Mind/Thought/I - It is just a thought.

Thoughts are ignorance and Knowledge also is ignorance. because both knowledge and ignorance belong only to the Mind.

The Self is neither Knowledge nor ignorance. In Nirvana Shatkam, Shankara sings:

Neither I am Mantra nor I am the Veda (knowledge)

The very attempt is going outwards.

Bhagawan has said:

"Outwardness of mind is ignorance and its inwards in happiness."

and even if it be that mind has the knowledge and fact about the ultimate seer, is actually Outwardness of mind. Mind inwards is Attempt-less, thoughtless.

Thoughts be it even knowledge of Brahman is still but a thought. Has to go. has to cease.

Just Be.

Any thought that springs up is taking you away from Tat. and if a thought springs up, we have to enquire "who am I to whom these thoughts arising?

Salutations to Sri Ramana
« Last Edit: January 15, 2010, 01:39:02 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta