Author Topic: The Witness of the Movie  (Read 25480 times)

Nagaraj

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #30 on: January 11, 2010, 03:03:01 PM »
Dear I,

In that case, what happens to these thoughts when you are sleeping? in Sushupti? Where are thoughts during sushupti that point towards Self? where are thought during sushupti that lead you to liberation? Where are you - 'I' during Sushupti, Deep Sleep?

It is only during waking - Jagrat, that you are able to say all there:

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This too is a thought ... and by your argument no thought can lead you to Self ! So this thought & what ever you have done as an action upon it ... is futile! Your argument, not mine!
 
Nagaraj, in a prior post you said "no thought can point to Self" ... its the opposite of reality. "Every Thought Points To Self"
Amazing ... infact every thought can lead to liberation!!

What about during Sushupti? Infact what you say is just Swapa - State

Salutations to Sri Ramana

« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 03:05:26 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #31 on: January 11, 2010, 05:33:43 PM »
Dear I,
 :)

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and moreover ... suppose that information is not there ... how can you function in the world ?

why is there a need to function in the world? Please see who has this need? who is that 'I' ? and is there a world? what is world? are you in the world in first place, if one such world even exists?

Then we can look into the second aspect of your side of argument as to:

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and moreover ... suppose that information is not there ... how can you function in the world ? suppose Ramana were to not have any thoughts ... he would have not remembered. Yesterday you went and he would see [if at all] and today you go ... all blank!!

Lets leave Ramana, it does not matter to know whether Ramana had thoughts, did not have thoughts, whether he remembered... yesterday today and all. suppose you - 'I' feels that he had thoughts, how does it affect you - 'I', suppose he did not have thoughts, still how does it affect you - 'I'. Infact who is it that is concluding, that Ramana had thoughts or did not have thoughts? It is more important to find this 'I' who is concluding all these. Infact, it is you 'I' in the end that is deciding How Ramana was and not Ramana! It is absolutely of no consequence to see the world or the Truth from Ramana Maharshi's eyes. It is more important to see(being) the truth ourselves.

and

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Tell me ... Suppose you see a dog. The brain brings up all previous memories you had about the dog. That this dog bit you when you were a kid ... if such a memory is there, it shall surface. you do not do anything about it ... the thought just pops up. when you did not do anything to bring the thought, how do u plan to stop it from coming

why a need arised in first place to see that dog? please see this need, why it arised,  for whom did it arise?, who is the 'I' to whom this need arised.

Suppose you have not seen the dog? do these thoughts pops up as you say? The need has been there, similarly, to the girl friend example you quoted.

Question the very need! Who is having the need? Thoughts are arising because there is some need in first place.

Please introspect as follows:

1. why there is a need in first place?
2. to whom has the need arised
3. who is the 'I' to whom, those needs have arised
4. Who am I?

Needs are nothing but thoughts themselves, Mind itself, Ego itself, 'I' itself.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
« Last Edit: January 11, 2010, 06:51:20 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #32 on: January 12, 2010, 04:08:56 PM »
Dear I,

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What do you mean "what is the need to see the dog". The dog is seen. Its not a choice. You are seeing. You are seeing all this. The moment you see you will have thoughts flashing. What is the need ?? Its not in your hands. Things are happening. Even if you close your eyes, perceptions will be there ... there is no choice here!

As you are seeing this reply, why do you see just the words and sentences, why don't you see the monitor, the computer? are not these sentences now in the computer? but you - "I' just sees the reply, because, it is more interested in what it wants. How come it is not aware of the computer but only the words, here? see, this is what it wants, thoughts wants thoughts!

Everyday, we may read hundreds of articles in newspaper, stories and other contents in various different magazines and papers, when you were reading all these, were you aware about the paper in first place? you - 'I' wouldn't have even seen or registered the paper, because, we - 'I' is more interested in what it needs, the thoughts that are written.

In the Dog illustration, why only Dog, is registered and not the earth or mud, or any other thing for that matter, because there is some sort of need of recollecting about the past happenings. Even remembering your past - memories is just a need, a desire, you cherish your memories - good or bad.

As long as you - 'I' - thoughts are there, thoughts lasts, perception will be there. You - 'I' are nothing thoughts themselves.

Thoughts are nothing but Vasanas.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #33 on: January 12, 2010, 08:13:32 PM »
Dear I,

So you chose to see the dog or the tree in your corridor
did you chose to "think" a particular thought?

if you chose, then we can discuss.
if u did not chose, how can u chose not to have them ???
its not in ur hands at all!

I din't quite get what you are conveying here.

The question is that why a need arised to see the dog. In particular only the dog, please introspect and tell me.

To tell me means introspection, you are not telling me in reality, but to yourself

Saluations to Sri Ramana
« Last Edit: January 12, 2010, 09:42:57 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

amiatall

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #34 on: January 12, 2010, 10:35:02 PM »
Where this discussion is being lead to?

A mirage is a mirage, what can one do? There is nothing to be done in Reality.

Nagaraj always points that there is Jiva which makes these statements and that statements.
But at the same time it is being said that we don't know if Bhagavan had thoughts and personality or whatever.
Is it not the same to assume that that which made this statement or that statement is Jiva? How one knows? And who knows?
Everyone knows that a child is being fed, but in case of a child there is no awareness of it. So, one assumes that Jiva makes this statement but is it?
If we talk of unreality please talk about everything that is unreal. The Jiva that is being assumed to exist here, does it truly exist?



Nagaraj

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #35 on: January 13, 2010, 08:07:34 AM »
Dear I,

The 'Jiva' is there so long thoughts exists. Thoughts themselves is verily 'Jiva'

You are Thoughts. As long as thoughts are there, You are there!

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #36 on: January 13, 2010, 10:26:48 AM »
Dear I,

        :) Between two thoughts, there are no thoughts ... you are still there!
suppose you are not there, how did the next thought come ???

in deep sleep, no thoughts ... you are still there.

you are totally independent of the thoughts. thoughts do not make you.
There presence or absence cannot touch you... just as a shadow cannot touch the real person ... or a mirage's presence or absence does not make any difference.  

Who is it that is saying this ? Whos is the 'I' that is saying thus? Thinking thus? How do you - 'I' Mind know that you are there in deep sleep? why are you not able to say this in deep sleep? why don't the 'I' say that between thoughts as you put? Who is the one that is saying all there?

It is the Ego, Thought, Mind, I

Who is the one that is saying "you are totally independent of the thoughts. thoughts do not make you." ???

Who am 'I' ?

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #37 on: January 13, 2010, 10:30:23 AM »
Dear I,

The question is that why a need arised to see the dog. In particular only the dog, please introspect and tell me.

Do you have a choice? There is no choice. The Dog is seen.
you cannot choce "I'll not see Dog" or "i'll See a Dog now" ... its not possible!

Please question again, Please introspect why the dog is seen? it is seen because of some desire which you - thought - Mind! Please enquire further to whom this thought or desire has come !

Vasanas are nothing but thoughts themselves!

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #38 on: January 13, 2010, 10:34:53 AM »
Dear I,

that "its ego, thought, mind!" ... is a thought too ;)

Yes, so long thoughts are there it continues. Your second thought

Quote
BTW ... :) and "you" need not know who you are ;) cant ask me abt it! ;)
just kidding!

is no kidding, please see, introspect further, the "you" to whom you are addressing is yourself! Mind addressing to mind, thought addressing to thoughts.

You are really talking and answering your own questions, your arguments are for yourself only.

It is so very important to know who the "Who" is. Who is this?

Who am I? is no different from Who are you? Both are one and the same for 'I' and 'You' are just Ego, thoughts, Mind, I

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #39 on: January 13, 2010, 10:37:23 AM »
Dear I,

There is no choice. Desire is where there is a choice.

Seeing, perception ... no choice.

All that I am trying to tell is this, that the one that is saying this is 'I' Ego, thoughts, Mind and it is saying so because it is under threat. Questioning it means dabbling with death for it - Mind, Thoughts, Ego.

The Ego Mind, Thought is just trying to find some way or the other to continue - "Seeing, perception ... no choice."

Please introspect, it is so clear!

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #40 on: January 13, 2010, 10:39:25 AM »
Dear I,

Why do you want to interospect so much?
leave this thought ;)

To whom are you asking this question? Who is the YOU? you are addressing to? In reality you - thought are asking yourself this question - "Why do you want to interospect so much? leave this thought ;)"

Because the YOU you are addressing is yourself!

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #41 on: January 13, 2010, 10:41:07 AM »
Dear I,

Ego , mind ... has no choice in seeing ...
only the "reaction" to seeing is in its hands!

Now how did this ego come into existence? is it there in first place to make choice? how can it make choices if it is not there? Is not the Ego - Mind, thoughts acknowledging itself?

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #42 on: January 13, 2010, 10:46:05 AM »
Dear I,

You are wrong. You are addressing only to yourself. Please introspect. That is the whole issue. There is no me here as you think. It is all your thoughts. There are only thoughts, there is no your thought or my thoughts and all.

There is just thoughts alone.

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if its to me... i need not write here! in a blog


You are writing all these just for yourself! Please Introspect.

(This is a positive constructive discussion,  :) )

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #43 on: January 13, 2010, 10:48:37 AM »
Dear I,

what do you mean "how did this ego come into existence" ? it is there. That's all. normally what kind of answer would you expect for "how are you in office" ... "i started from home and reached here ... so on " ... how did this ego come into existence ... i cannot give u an explanation of the process before "i" came into existence! that would be meaningless --- for any one to give a reason .

OK, now if you say Ego is there, please enquire who is this ego? who is this I?

And this sentence you mentioned - "normally what kind of answer would you expect for "how are you in office" ... "i started from home and reached here ... so on " ... how did this ego come into existence ... i cannot give u an explanation of the process before "i" came into existence! that would be meaningless --- for any one to give a reason"

Ego, Mind, Thought is addressing to itself!

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #44 on: January 13, 2010, 10:55:39 AM »
Dear I,

plz tell me ...
if i am just interacting with myself.
why this blog ? ;)
why dont i just sit home and talk to myself... infact even just think
Ok ... suppose by interospecting you find i am not there ... how do u know that is not hallucination?

This is such an important question, you have to ask yourself.

By the statement "plz tell me ..." you are asking yourself - ego, thoughts, mind itself.

Please ask yourself this so very important question "if i am just interacting with myself.
why this blog ? ;) why dont i just sit home and talk to myself... infact even just think"


Please enquire who is the I to whom these thoughts arising "Ok ... suppose by interospecting you find i am not there ... how do u know that is not hallucination?"

Please introspect on these. Who am 'I'

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta