Author Topic: The Witness of the Movie  (Read 25445 times)

Nagaraj

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #15 on: January 07, 2010, 03:31:08 PM »
Dear I,

What I am more trying to point here is this, that - "It is not a "State" Attained ... it is everyone's state here and now." is also a thought only.

The You, thought, Mind, I, is just working out its continuity.

It is not even this - "It is not a "State" Attained ... it is everyone's state here and now."

The one that says this is still the thought, I, Mind.

You are just Thought.

Salutations to Sri Ramana



॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #16 on: January 07, 2010, 04:00:31 PM »
Dear I,

Quote
1. If Ego were "alive" it can be destroyed. What is only a shadow ... how do you propose to destroy it?

2. The Ramana who talked to you also a part of the imagination ... So to say that "True" Ramana is thoughtless ... its meaningless ... coz the only Ramana you/I or anyone knows is the one who see , walking talking etc.

1. The very idea suggested is indicative of false perception. The very entity that holds this view itself is the Ego - I - Mind - Thought. The Mind, here, is itself trying to protect itself by thinking that Ego is a shadow, that it cannot be destroyed, that it does not exist. But it is forgetting itself which is itself the Ego, Mind, Thought.

As I said before, Thought cannot kill thought, therefore I never mentioned about destroying it. There is no destroying here. The very idea of destroying it is again another thought and also the very idea of not killing it is also a thought. As long as thought exists, there is no Manonasham.

      a. The Mind cannot become Self
      b. The Mind cannot kill Mind
      c. The entity that says nothing can affect it is also Mind
      d. The Self cannot know it is Self, there is no need for it. So the one that is saying is just the Mind

2. Ramana Maharshi is himself just a thought for thought. Ramana Maharshi exists so long thought/mind exists.

Quote
The finger is pointing to the moon and you are saying "its not the moon, its a finger" !

The statement "its the state of everyone" is meant to be a pointer towards the Self! But why do you have to tell this, all statements here are bound to be thoughts! Coz they are statements.

Thats precisely what I am telling - "The finger is pointing to the moon and you are saying - 'its not the moon, its a finger'" The thought/mind/ego/I is just pointing towards another thought/mind/ego/I

There is no way the thought can point towards the so called "Moon"

To whom is the pointer? who needs the pointer? Please see.

Salutations to Sri Ramana






« Last Edit: January 07, 2010, 04:03:37 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #17 on: January 07, 2010, 04:13:09 PM »
Dear I,

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If no thought can point to Self, Ramana's whole teaching ... read it , is absolutely useless ... is this what you mean?

Is what you mean, these are all your thoughts, please see them yourself. There is no answer here. Find it out yourself.

Self does not need Self realisation. Absolutely, Bang on! So who is it that is needing the so called Self Realisation? is it not the Mind?, Ego?, I?, Though?

Body is just a thought.

Quote
he mind is "thoughts" --- which you said cannot see the Self. So all vedas , vedantas and teachings are useless... including Ramana and his teachings ... is this what you are telling ?

Is what you mean, these are all your thoughts, please see them yourself. There is no answer here. Find it out yourself.

These are all the questions popping up within you. You have the answers for it too. And if you have answers then it your thought pointing to another thought. If you have question, then it is Mind, thought, Ego, I.

If you don't have both, is manonasham



All the above  - whatever I wrote is your own.


Salutations to Sri Ramana



॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #18 on: January 07, 2010, 04:26:57 PM »
Dear I,

Absolutely,

Manonasham remains a thought so long, you question it, so long you have answers to it. Just the absence of both is Manonasham.

So long you have question you have answers. This is what I/Ego/Mind wants.

Question is Ego/Mind/I/Thought
Answers is again the same Ego/Mind/I/Thought

Quote
These are the thoughts too  --- so whats it? manonashanam is also a thought!

Yes! it sure is - thats why, I mentioned "All the above  - whatever I wrote is your own."

Salutations to Sri Ramana Maharshi
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #19 on: January 07, 2010, 04:47:00 PM »
Dear all,

I think the long discussions have come about, because,  we think,
that "thinking" process should come out only from the "mind" and
the mindless Jnani cannot write books or converse with others without a mind. 

I am not readily able to find a more exact simile.  However, in
villages, we find that a large pumpset, with electric generator
is needed to ensure a copious flow of water from the earth below.  Now this is something like mind producing thoughts.  However, wherefrom the hill-springs flow out copious water?  Is there an electric connection or is there a pumpset?  Wherefrom this springs come about?  We can at best say, it is Nature's hidden force.

Again, to make a large cavity on earth, we need long hours of labour of ploughing or a drilling machine.  How does the land get separated
with a large hole, when there is an earth quake or a landslide?
Where is the drilling machine or an axe or a plough here?  It is
again, we say Nature.

Jnani is like Nature.  He does not need a pumpset/drilling machine
of a mind to do the springing out of water or an earthern cavity.
The same result, but without a special implement called mind.

(Adapted from the personal hearing of Brahmasri Nochur Venkataraman).

Arunachala Siva.   

amiatall

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #20 on: January 07, 2010, 06:09:58 PM »
So, the discussion goes on about How a mirage is a mirage  :D


Subramanian.R

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #21 on: January 08, 2010, 11:27:15 AM »
How can a Brahma Jnani without thoughts, write a book or engage
in activities?

When I said Jnani is like Nature, doing certain thing without the
implements/gadgets i..e the thinking process of a mind, people
said when so many things could happen naturally like a water
spring in the Hill or a cavity on earth, due earthquake, thinking
can also happen naturally.  If that be so, then Bhagavan Ramana
should have said about "natural thinking without the instrument
of mind", somewhere in the Conversations / Tallks compiled by
devotees.  But no such reply has been found anywhere.

I think, Ribhu Gita, comes here with the answer.  The Chapter
26 Verse 25 (Tr. in English free verse by Dr.H. Ramamoorthy
and Nome) runs like this:

That which by knowing firmly as oneself
One has no need to anything else in the least,
By knowing which with full conviction as oneself
All is known for ever.
And by knowing which as oneself in complete certitude
All actions are accomplished in their entirety --
Ever abide in Bliss, without a trace of a concept (sankalpa)
In That itself as That itself.

Incidentally Sri Lingeshwara Rao's Sanskrit-English version,
does not have this!  Everything is Ramana maya.

Arunachala Siva.     

ramanaduli

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #22 on: January 08, 2010, 02:13:39 PM »
To witness anything, two things are required. One is the subject means that is me. and the object. After witnessing, we come to know all the objects are mithya.
Then I turn to myself. i.e. who is the witness and where I dwell. I tried this. slowly  there is nothing,there is no answer. I am nowhere. Now tell me  the witness i.e. Me also is Mythya?  The thought of "I" also is it a thought?


Ramanaduli

amiatall

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #23 on: January 08, 2010, 02:32:46 PM »
We know Self is without concepts.

Lets step aside for a bit to bring a discussion from different perspective.
Could we then rise a different question, like: 1. can MIND be free of concepts totally?

2. Isn't MIND itself is Self when not outward pointed?
3. Lets take a bird, for example, bird sings beautifully, flies beautifully, does it mean that some kind of intelligence can work through living beings which in no way needs a concept-like mind?
(to my mind why it doesn't need a concept-like mind to perform deeds? because That knows what is to be done. This knowing through not knowing indeed is a mystery.)

What do you think? (1,2,3)





Subramanian.R

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #24 on: January 08, 2010, 03:48:26 PM »
Dear amiatall,

1.  One can be without mind, that is, mind permanently curling
up in the Self.  This is the no-mind state. 

2. Mind when not outward pointed permanently, it is said to curl up
in the Self.  It is like the moon on the high noon.

3. Every activity of all living beings, is due to God's engineering and the living being's vasana.  A terrorist also kills a group of people out
of God's engineering, but it is his vasana which has thrust him that
work.  Sri Ramakrishna used to say to Kali.  Thum Yantri Ami Yantra.
You are the operator and I am the machine.

Okay, why God instead of keeping quiet, should engineer the living
beings?  The answer is:  Who am I question Him?  Among the
million spermatoza, one unites with ovum and causes fertility.
Why this particular one, among the millions?  Who chooses?  God.
Why should He?  Who am I to question Him?

Arunachala Siva.

Subramanian.R

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #25 on: January 08, 2010, 03:50:20 PM »
Dear Ramanaduli,

I and Me are only thoughts.  Only abidance in I AM is Real.  It is
a thoughtless state.

Arunachala Siva.

Nagaraj

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2010, 06:18:59 PM »
Dear I,

By your own definition,
the "as long as" ... is thought ... its thought that "after" that there is something and that manonashanam , which is absence of both is a thought too! so you are just saying everything is a thought ... even the absence of thought is a thought !

:) I thought Everything is Brahman ;)

Well, this is what the thought is doing, giving out one more answer -

"so you are just saying everything is a thought ... even the absence of thought is a thought !"

":) I thought Everything is Brahman ;)"

As long as there is question and answer, so long it goes. As I said before both questions and answers are both one and the same. I have nothing more to say here. what ever questions are there, they are your own and surely there will be an answer too, within you.

If there is a question, it will have an answer, and if there is an answer, there will be question, again.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #27 on: January 08, 2010, 07:11:33 PM »
Question, answer, further question, further answer.  This is endless.
This reminds of Gaudapada Karika and Panchadasi, where the
"whether the egg came first or the hen came first"... question
is taken up and answered. (This is of course, regarding free will
and destiny dichotomy.)  Sureswara says in Panchadasi:  "Break
the egg and crush the neck of the hen.  Throw them both to the
earth.  Prostrate and pray to the earth, from which was born both
the first egg or the first hen."  Then all questions will stop.  No answers will come. It is like, as Bhagavan said, the stick that
stirs the funeral pyre..... in Who am I?  The answerless state
(or further questionless state) is abidance.

Arunachala Siva.

amiatall

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #28 on: January 08, 2010, 07:17:57 PM »
Dear srkudai,Subramanian.R

really excellent answers.

Let me humbly make you follow my trend of thought and elaborate further.
Consciousness is nor liberated nor in bondage. Also there is what we call attention.
Do you agree, that through attention consciousness expresses itself?
What is attention, really ?

Subramanian.R

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Re: The Witness of the Movie
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2010, 08:22:52 AM »
Dear amiatall,

Attention is only Self Attention, nothing else.  If Self Attention
is sincere and complete, the sadhak will 'attend' to all that is to
be attended in the objective world.

Arunachala Siva.