Author Topic: Objects,Body,Thoughts & The SELF  (Read 5002 times)

srkudai

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Objects,Body,Thoughts & The SELF
« on: December 22, 2009, 05:16:05 PM »
The objects are subject to change. They are born, they are limited time wise, limited space wise and they are subject to death.
The same with this body as well. It is changing. its subject to birth and death.
Same can be said about the thoughts. Every thought has a birth and then it changes and finally dies.

The Self Alone is changeless Truth.
When the object vanishes or is present , the Self is not changed.
The object cannot be stopped from changing --- while the Self cannot be made to change!
Same with the body. The body dies. It cannot be stopped from dying. nor need it be destroyed. The body's changes do not touch the Self.

Same at the level of the thoughts. When thoughts change, the Self is untouched.

and one day, the thoughts, the body and the objects all die ... the Self Remains as it IS

Love!
Silence

tvranjith

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Re: Objects,Body,Thoughts & The SELF
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2009, 08:24:02 PM »
OHM ARUNACHALAYA NAMA:
SWAMI,
            I READ UR WRITINGS, I UNDERSTAND,  BUT HOW CAN I KEEP MY SILENCE WITHOUT GOD'S GRACE. IS IT POSSIBLE TO DO SADHANA ALWAYS? I THINK LIKE EVERYTHING IT ALSO HAPPENS, WE ARE HELPLESS.... EXPECTING UR REPLY...

BY...RANJITH

Subramanian.R

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Re: Objects,Body,Thoughts & The SELF
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2009, 10:50:43 AM »
Dear tvaranjit,

Yes. As srkudai said Effort is also necessary for Sadhana apart
from Guru's Grace.  If you go one step towards Guru, he will
take nine steps towards you.  Even weak efforts would do.
When Jesus could make the lame walk, and raise the dead back
to life, cannot Guru/God strengthen your weak efforts.  But put
some efforts to start with.  1 can be made into 2,3,4,5, etc.,
But 0 cannot be made into 1, 2,3,4,5, etc.,  This is Ramana
arithmetic.

Arunachala Siva. 

Nagaraj

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Re: Objects,Body,Thoughts & The SELF
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2009, 12:51:40 PM »
Dear I,

But the kind of effort needed here is slightly different from conventional Sadhanas. Here a Sadhaka has to put effort or perform Sadhana to attain (actually there is no attaining) the (state) of Non Sadhana or absolute effortlessness. Sadhana to Non Sadhana which is the natural Self.

Biggest irony is that one has to put a lot of effort "to think" and actually no effort "to not think" at all. Therefore a Sadhana, what ever it may be, has to lead one to effortlessness. This is the "Mauna" of Dakshinamurthy or "Chumma Iru" or "Be Still" of Sri Ramana Maharshi.

It may appear logically since the effortlessness implies no Sadhana, but one should not get caught in logical Tarka. One has to surrender completely to a Guru.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
« Last Edit: December 23, 2009, 05:59:21 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

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Re: Objects,Body,Thoughts & The SELF
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2009, 08:52:53 AM »
If at all there is effort, it is only the effort to remove the dirt,
the smoke around the chimney that contains the Lamp of Brahman.

Arunachala Siva.
 

Subramanian.R

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Re: Objects,Body,Thoughts & The SELF
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2009, 01:19:39 PM »
There was one gentleman by name Thinnai Swami.  He came to
see Bhagavan Ramana with his family.  When he was taking leave
of Bhagavan, Bhagavan merely said, "Iru".  "Be."  He continued
in Tiruvannamalai for another 25 years, and the family left him
and visiting him occasionally.  He was living in a Thinnai, the front
portal of a large house.  No bath.  No change of dress.  Food, only
when someone offers.  Such is the magnetic spell of Bhagavan
Ramana.

Arunachala Siva.

nonduel

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Re: Objects,Body,Thoughts & The SELF
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2009, 10:14:58 PM »
Dear All,

To put effort...there has to be a "doer"!

The Ribhu Gita states very clearly say that All Is Brahman. Does Brahman needs to put effort?

From:  "Talks with Sri Ramana", page 441 Talk 450

"Maharshi: "To BE" is to realise -- hence I AM THAT I AM. I AM is Siva. Nothing else can be without Him. Everything has its being in Siva and because of Siva.

Therefore enquire "Who am I?" Sink deep within and abide as the Self. That is Siva as BE-ing. Do not expect to have visions of Him repeated. What is the difference between the objects you see and Siva? He is both the subject and the object. You cannot be without Siva. Siva is always realised here and now. If you think you have not realised Him it is wrong. This is the obstacle for realising Siva. Give up that thought also and realisation is there.

Devotee: Yes. But how shall I effect it as quickly as possible?

M: This is the obstacle for realisation. Can there be the individual without Siva? Even now He is you. There is no question of time. If there be moment of non-realisation, the question of realisation can arise. but as it is you cannot be without Him. He is already realised, ever realised and never non-realised.

A little further: Who is there that is not conscious? So, who is not realised? How then can questions arrise doubting realisation or desiring it??
Further: These questions arise because you have limited the Self to the body...


Who needs effort? Are you that?

Love
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

nonduel

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Re: Objects,Body,Thoughts & The SELF
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2009, 10:34:00 PM »
Dear All,

From "Talks with Sri Ramana", page 319, Talk 336

The questioner retired. Later, Sri Ramana said: Divine sight means Self-luminosity. The word "divya" shows it The full word means the Self. Who is to bestow a divine eye? And who is to see? Again, people read in books, "hearing, reflection and one-pointedness are necessary" They think that they must pass through "savikalpa samadhi and nirvikalpa samadhi" before attaining Realisation. Hence all these questions. Why should they wander in that maze? What do they gain at the end? It is only cessation of the trouble of seeking. they find that the Self is eternal and self-evident. Why should they not get repose even this moment?

A question:  What change(s) occurs after Realisation?   One only Realises that one has always been Realised.



Love
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

nonduel

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Re: Objects,Body,Thoughts & The SELF
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2009, 11:07:56 PM »
Dear All,

Still from the same book: "Talks with Sri Ramana" Page 320-321 talk 338:

Later Sri Ramana said the whole Vedanta is contained in the two Biblical statements:  "I am that I AM" and "Be still and know I am God"
Mr. K.S.N. Iyer, a Railway Officer, said to Sri Bhagavan that the compiler of "Cosmic Consciousness" considers realisation to be possible only within certain limits of age in an individual's life.

Maharshi: Does anyone say "I must come into being before or after some age?" He is here and now. Statements like this are misleading because people come to believe that they cannot realise the Self in this incarnation and must needs take chances in another. It is all absurd


Page 335-336 Talk 354
Removal of ignorance is the aim of practice, and not acquisition of Realisation. Realisation is ever present, here and now"

Devotee:  Is the thought "I am God" or "I am the Supreme Being" helpful?
Maharshi:   "I am that I am". "I am" is God.....not thinking, "I am God". Realise "I am" and do not think I am, "Know I am God"...it is said, and not "Think I am God".

Further: You are the Self. remain as the Self. That is all. The question arise because of the present wrong identification of the Self with the body


Love
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

matthias

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Re: Objects,Body,Thoughts & The SELF
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2009, 11:18:54 PM »
dear nondual what you say is the truth, but to say effort is not neccessary could also be an obstacle and missleading...

I understand you...but I remember the storyof the young milarepa meeting a great lama who tells him, you are allready realized, no effort is neccessary, you are non active sky-like awereness...

and milarepy became very very egoistic after that teaching, the lama saw it and he sended him away to another lama (known as marpa the translator, who brought the mahamudra tantras from india to tibet), who made him do alot of crazy purification works like building a house and destroying it shortly before it is finished because there is this little misstake, and then rebould it...destroy it.... again and again...kicking him out of hte ashram, shouting at him, not giving him instrucitons, treating him like a dog etc.....

and milarepa became one of hte greatest yogis of all time...

so this teaching is wonderfull and true but I guess it depends who is listening (also I think that Iam not fully ripe for this....I need effort and daily practice and a little disciplin....if I would say that effort is not neccessary and at the same time Iam practicing daily, and reading scriptures etc...then I would not be very authentic or?)

much love
matthias


nonduel

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Re: Objects,Body,Thoughts & The SELF
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2009, 11:34:57 PM »
Dear Matthias,

These aren't the words of "non-duel" they are the words of Bhagavan.

Just for the fun of it...if Bhagavan was in front of you and repeated these words to you...would you fully, absolutely accept them as the Truth?

I have posted these posts, and I know that they are not understood the same by others. This is very good, you see, because this is how the understanding builds up, with different views expressed. This is just in line with my personal understanding and everyone has to fullest liberty to refuse them. They are fully open for discussion, with Love.

It is often mentionned that realisation depends on the readiness of the devotee. This for me is the same as the post I wrote about the author of "Cosmic Consciousness" mentionning a certain age limitation see? Could it be that devotees who are ready are the ones who accept through complet faith, instantly what Bhagavan said?

If ALL IS SIVA, BRAHMAN.....tell me how could there be duality implied by others doing sadhana, striving hard for realisation...?

Could it be that complete surrender is accepting I AM that I Am?
Could it be that accepting with absolute faith is Bakti?

Love
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

Graham

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Re: Objects,Body,Thoughts & The SELF
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2009, 05:03:33 AM »
From Talks 141

The same gentleman later, after quoting a verse from Kaivalya, asked: “Can jnana be lost after being once attained?”

M.: Jnana, once revealed, takes time to steady itself. The Self is certainly within the direct experience of everyone, but not as one imagines it to be. It is only as it is. This Experience is samadhi. Just as fire remains without scorching against incantations or other devices but scorches otherwise, so also the Self remains veiled by vasanas and reveals itself when there are no vasanas. Owing to the fluctuation of the vasanas, jnana takes time to steady itself. Unsteady jnana is not enough to check rebirths. Jnana cannot remain unshaken side by side with vasanas. True, that in the proximity of a great master, the vasanas will cease to be active, the mind becomes still and samadhi results, similar to fire not scorching because of other devices. Thus the disciple gains true knowledge and right experience in the presence of the master. To remain unshaken in it further efforts are necessary. He will know it to be his real Being and thus be liberated even while alive. Samadhi with closed eyes is certainly good, but one must go further until it is realised that actionlessness and action are not hostile to each other. Fear of loss of samadhi while one is active is the sign of ignorance. Samadhi must be the natural life of everyone.

There is a state beyond our efforts or effortlessness. Until it is realised effort is necessary. After tasting such Bliss, even once, one will repeatedly try to regain it. Having once experienced the Bliss of Peace no one would like to be out of it or engaged himself otherwise. It is as difficult for a jnani to engage in thoughts as it is for an ajnani to be free from thought.

The common man says that he does not know himself; he thinks many thoughts and cannot remain without thinking.
Any kind of activity does not affect a jnani; his mind remains ever in eternal Peace.

--------------

This also answers many of the contentious statements in other posts

matthias

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Re: Objects,Body,Thoughts & The SELF
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2009, 02:11:08 PM »
dear non.duel these words are the truth

I know it (feel it)....and I accept it as true and I relaxe into the light of your words, as I relaxe into the words of most people here...I enjoy reading them and I regard this board as full of wisdom inhabited by buddhas and sages :)

but effort and knowledge of truth are not a contradiction (in my mind htey are, but I in a way I feel that they coexist and that they have to coexist)

that is all what I mean

much love
matthias

nonduel

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Re: Objects,Body,Thoughts & The SELF
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2009, 06:37:00 PM »
Dear All,

The core illusion is the thought I am a body. The Truth is that All Is Brahman. The Ribhu Gita teach this page after page relentlessly and emphasizes the conviction, Bhavana of this Truth. Now this is the dichotomy we cannot escape in duality.

Thus a sadhaka can put in lots of effort through reading, japas, mantras, go from temple to temple, go to one guru and another etc. Sri Ramana said, it is not a "DOING" but a "BEING". Of course we can say that this Being is a "doing"! Then what is sadhana?  Is Realisation something to attain? Or a Realisation of what we ARE, of what I AM?

I like what Subramanian-ji wrote:  "If at all there is effort, it is only the effort to remove the dirt, the smoke around the chimney that contains the Lamp of Brahman."

If we do not see the sun because of the clouds, is effort needed to "bring" back the sun? Have we lost the sun if after a cloudless day, other clouds reappears?

I will greatly appreciate any comments to the contrary that will give me a better understanding. I am very conscious of Sri Ramana's "...Realise and then talk". These are just another sadhaka's question.

Is BEING just to rest in the knowing that I Am that I Am and the bliss that surges from this?

Arunachala Siva.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2009, 06:54:11 PM by nonduel »
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

matthias

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Re: Objects,Body,Thoughts & The SELF
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2009, 12:57:06 PM »
i can share what I expereinced so far...thats all I know..

first thing as udai ji said the knowledge is essential, we need to know what it is that we are looking for, and the basic ways the ego works....what is truth what is concept....

in terms of meditaition I can share what I know from dzogchen....and here it is simply about relaxing into the truth(this moment)...

this means we need to know that what is right now, is utterly pure and true....there is no thing, no spot in htis universe that is not "good" or loving....this allows me to rest in it...freely, I can let go all tension, and be there as Iam...and then buddhamind actualizes itself...without my doing...

this is called in zen "non-seeking mind"....a mind that is not searching for more then what is allready there....( this is a happy and carefree mind)

and this happens in meditation sometimes....sometimes during day to day activities etc...and Iam teached to cherrish this moments, because they deconstruct the wrong ideas about what Iam...

thats all I know....

I came to the conclusion that the relaxing into the moment in dzogchen, is the same like surrendering to the self...you surrender your body and mind to the self...this is simply letting go of body and mind relaxing them into the present moment..(effortless...a non-active meditaiton, a letting go of...not a creating of..)

i hope that this was not wrong..

and it is not contradictory to what you said, in the beginning I guess there is a feeling that Iam "doing" presence...wich will slowly be deconstructed too...

so its effort that destroys itself...effortless effort...

but to say effort is not neccessary is wrong..in my view..as long as I feel "Iam bound" I need to try to free myself...even if I know that it is a lie...and even if I understood the truth....the thing is I cannot do it in another way...my feeling of beeing bound is the motivation or the fuel to free myself...If i would say I dont read scriptures anymore...I dont practice anymore...then my life would be horrible :)

anyway ramakrishna was devoted to kali after nondual realisation...dudjom rinpoche stood up at 4 o clock to pray for all his devotees that they might reach liberation when they see him...and he practice till his paranirvana..and belive me there is no quesiton that he was fully realized..

so can one speak about effort in such cases?