Author Topic: Universal Consciousness: Beyond all limitations  (Read 5075 times)

silentgreen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 756
    • View Profile
Universal Consciousness: Beyond all limitations
« on: November 27, 2009, 03:46:42 PM »
Sri Ramakrishna said:
"God has form and He is formless too. Further, He is beyond both form and formlessness. No one can limit Him."

No can can limit the Universal Consciousness.
If someone thinks that only recluse can get Self-Realisation, a Lahiri Mahasaya is born.
If someone thinks that only devotees of Siva can get God-Realisation, a Chaitanya Mahaprabhu is born.
If someone thinks that only men can get God-Realisation, a Maa Anandamayi is born.
If someone thinks that God cannot be realised through idol worship, a Ramakrisha is born.
If someone thinks that God can only be realised through idol worship, a Ramana Maharshi is born.
If someone thinks that God can only be realized through rituals, a Buddha is born.
If someone thinks that God can only be realized in India, a Jesus Christ is born.
If someone thinks that only economically sound people can have realization, a Nisargadatta Maharaj is born.
If someone thinks that only grown-ups can get self-realization, a Jnana Sambandar is born.
If someone thinks that only learned people can get self-realization, a Sarada Devi is born.
If someone thinks a learned people can never get Self-realization, a Shankaracharya is born.
If someone thinks that one can get self-realisation only by satsangs of a personal guru, A J. Krishnamurthy is born.

Whenever there appeared to be a limiting opinion about Universal Consciousness, it reappears in a form and shows that it is beyond that limit also.

The Universal Consciousness is beyond all forms.
However for devotees It is amenable to all forms.
It is the Krishna of Krishna devotees.
It is the Shiva of Shiva devotees.
It is the Ramakrishna of Ramakrisha devotees.
If is the Ramana of Ramana devotees.
It is the Christ of Christ devotees.
It is the Buddha of Buddha devotees.

So Sri Ramakrisha said:
"God has form and He is formless too. Further, He is beyond both form and formlessness. No one can limit Him."
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45642
    • View Profile
Re: Universal Consciousness: Beyond all limitations
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2009, 05:24:13 PM »
Dear silentgreen,

Excellent.

The universal consciousness cuts across all barriers.  That is why
it is universal, limitless, beyond names and forms.  But a person
who has realized this Advaita Siddhi sees in every form and name
the Consciousness. 

Saint Jnana Deva, who was in and out a Panduranga (Krishna)
bhakta had this Advaita Siddhi towards the end of his life.  He
stopped going to the temple, sat simply on the banks of Chandrbhaga river and whatever devotees gave him, he was
eating.  Once devotees placed a couple of roti (bread) pieces
and some jaggery on a leaf and left.  Soon a dog came and grabbed
one roti and was running away.  The devotees were aghast not
knowing what to do?  Jnana Deva ran behind the dog, caught it
and said: O Panduranga, you have taken only the roti.  How will
you eat this dry food.  Why not you take this jaggery also?

Bhagavan Ramana once had a monkey which was stoned and beaten
up.  He used to nurse it everyday.  Soon it became alright.  On
seeing the wounds healed up, He rejoiced.  The same was the case
with another dog also.  Sri Arunachala Pancharatnam Verse 5:

Unnaikkandu ellam unnruvai
Anniyamil anbu seyym annon.....

He who, with Heart to you surrendered,
Beholds for ever you alone.
Sees all things as forms of you
And loves and serves them as none other
Than the Self, O Arunachala!
Triumphs because he is immersed
In you whose being is pure bliss.

Thank you, silentgreen.

Arunachala Siva.   

amiatall

  • Guest
Re: Universal Consciousness: Beyond all limitations
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2009, 06:23:12 PM »
marvellous post.

Everyone must realize that 'I AM' is universal and not an individual.

ramana_maharshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3557
    • View Profile
Re: Universal Consciousness: Beyond all limitations
« Reply #3 on: June 28, 2010, 08:35:34 PM »
nice article silentgreen garu.

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45642
    • View Profile
Re: Universal Consciousness: Beyond all limitations
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2010, 01:16:25 PM »

Dear srkudai,

Like the mind rid of impurities becoming the Self, normal consciousness becomes Universal Consciousness or the state of
All-knowledge. 

Arunachala Siva.

ramana_maharshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3557
    • View Profile
Re: Universal Consciousness: Beyond all limitations
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2010, 02:23:20 PM »
well said udai garu.

Your depth of understanding is excellent.

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45642
    • View Profile
Re: Universal Consciousness: Beyond all limitations
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2010, 02:59:52 PM »

Dear srkudai,

We begin saying that the world is unreal.  It is for the purpose of
continuing our seeking the Self.  Once the Self is realized, the world
is Real, Brahma Swarupam.  Similarly, the mind is mithya, seemingly
real on seemingly unreal for the purpose of sadhana.  Once the
self realization takes place it becomes the Brahman.

*

Bhagavan Ramana has said:

The inherent nature of the Self is Bliss.  Some kind of knowledge
has to be admitted, even in the realization of the supreme bliss.
It may be said to be subtler than the subtlest. 

The word Vijnana [clear knowledge] is used both to denote the realization of the Self and knowing the objects.  The Self is wisdom.  It functions in two ways.  When associated with ego, the knowledge is objective [vijnana].  When divested of the ego, and the universal Self is realized, it is also called Vijnana.  The word raises a mental concept.  Therefore, we say that the Self realized sage knows by his mind, but his mind is pure.  Again we say that by the vibrating mind is impure and the placid mind is pure.  The pure mind is itself Brahman.  Therefore it follows that Brahman is not other than the mind of the Sage.

*

To a question as to what is meant by Jnana and Vijnana, Bhagavan Ramana has answered in that context:  These words may mean differently according to the context.  Jnana = Samanya Jnana or Pure Consciousness.  Vijnana = Visesha Jnana.  Visesha Jnana may be: a) wordly [relative knowledge]; and b] Transcendental - Self realization.

*

Guru Vachaka Kovai Verse 1106 states:

The pure mind of a Jnani, which exists and shines as the witness, is a mirror that reflects even the impure thoughts that arise in his presence, in those whose minds are completely warped.  Thus,
he mystifies the minds of others in his presence, by giving the impression that he is a deluded person.

*

Muruganar also accepted this concept of the impure and pure mind,
and called them as Chittarivu [small knowledge] and Perarivu [grand knowledge].

Arunachala Siva.

ramana_maharshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3557
    • View Profile
Re: Universal Consciousness: Beyond all limitations
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2010, 03:25:51 PM »
Subramanian garu,

Bhagavan Ramana says, When the indefinable power of Brahman separates itself from Brahman and, in union with the reflection of consciousness (Chidabhasa) assumes various forms, it is called the impure mind. When it becomes free from the reflection of consciousness (abhasa), through discrimination, it is called the pure mind.

But there are no answers to questions like

why does we assume various forms i.e have impure mind??
how did karma started in the beginning?
why god created the universe ??
Where does maya come from and how did it originate?

But when these kind of questions were asked by some devotees ramana's typical answer was to ask to whom these doubts arise? His typical brahmastram :-)




Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Universal Consciousness: Beyond all limitations
« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2010, 05:16:32 PM »
Where were the thoughts during sushupti?

Why then the thoughts arise again after waking from sleep?

As long as there is 'I' thought, so long there will be mind, thoughts.

When the I is merged, thoughts, Mind, all are naught.

This is the essence of Dakshinamurthy. the Universal consciousness is Pure without a pinch of 'I-ness' - no mind !!

It is simple awareness, where there is no 'I' arising,

That is consciousness.

When there is I thought popping out, there is mind.

As long there is mind, there is Jagart Swapna Sushupti.

Consciousness is beyond these three states, that implies, destruction of mind, which itself is I thought.

Consciousness is (state) where there is no one who can own anymore the thought of consciousness. So long there is mind, there is owner to thoughts.

Salutations to Sri Ramana
« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 05:23:24 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Universal Consciousness: Beyond all limitations
« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2010, 06:12:53 PM »
Consciousness ever is, no doubt about it,

its as simple as the difference between Sri Ramana Maharshi and us... ;)

Curds is found in Milk itself, can we drink milk thinking it as curds? there is difference, Milk is milk, curds is curds, though both are in essence one and the same.

When there is curds, it is no more Milk.

Thats the point
« Last Edit: July 01, 2010, 06:15:13 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45642
    • View Profile
Re: Universal Consciousness: Beyond all limitations
« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2010, 11:49:45 PM »

Dear srkudai,

Yes. I agree Consciousness is both Bhagavan Ramana and we.  But
our consciousness, is more often than not, mind-consciousness,
ego-consciousness and world consciousness.  Bhagavan Ramana is
ever, eternally unchanging Pure Consciousness.  It is pure because
it is without mind/ego and the world.  Even we taste this Pure
Consciousness, with our mind curling up with the Self in deep sleep.
If we are denied, even these few hours of sleep everyday, we shall all go mad, because the mind and the world is too much with us.

Murugnar covers these aspects in his Guru Vachaka Kovai verses:

Verse 967: Iswara, the Atma Swarupam, while remaining beyond
mind-consciousness and shining free from attributes and limitations, assumes thee two [attributes and limitations] through pure maya, and then appears in the very visible form of the physical Guru in order to bestow His grace on devotees.  His grace is only
the Being-Consciousness that shines unbroken as 'I-I' in the stillness [that is experienced ] when the ego subsides in the Heart,
its Source, by enquiry, with its attention turned towards the Self.

Verse 985:  In truth, only the Self, Pure Consciousness, causes the appearances of all imaginary differences by appearing as the illusory limited consciousness.  Therefore, true Jnanis who have known and attained through enquiry the Self that shines equally
in everything, all those other things are wholly Self [tanmaya].

Verse 1009:  The eternal state, the refuge where one rests free
from the weariness of wandering hither and thither in distress, is the wondrous turiya firmament, Sivam, the Self Supreme, which flouishes as the undivided being consciousness and is revealed by
the Jnana Guru.

Verse 1010:  If you abide unshakeably in the Self, that state will destroy the bond created by sankalpas, like a snake shuffling of its slough.  When you persevere, abiding in such nishta [Self abidance] to the very end, that which manifests is the absolutely empty firmament of Pure Consciousness.

Verse 1036:  Since the dualistic differences do not, in truth, exist, the Self is only the being that is perfectly Pure Consciounsess which is entirely free from any trace of knowledge and ignorance.  In that Self, the Brahma Swarupam that is intense Prajnana, know that there is not even a trace of ignorance.

Verse 1037:  If the Self does not exist as being-consciousness, how can the diverse vijnana differences [knowledge of specific things] arise in it?  Therefore that Brahman, the Self is not only free from ignorance, but is itself the Swarupam, the Transcendental Consciousness.       

Verse 1046:  It exists as the extremely subtle light of being consciousness; it is without the rising of the ego that objectively
knows 'alien' objects as 'this'.  Trying to know it, the intellect, the jiva bodha, grows exhausted and laments, 'I have not known it'.
It is concentrated mauna.  Such is the Self, being consciousness.

Verse 1058:  Because of the excellence of the Swarupam, the oneness in which the seer himself becomes the seeing, one's
real nature is the most exalted.  The 'I' nature, the mauna-light
in which the ego, the seer 'I' has completely died, is the Self,
Consciousness the Supreme.

Verse 1059:  The Swarupam that is the abode of the bliss of consciousness is the vast ocean and deep ocean of intense
peace.  Those who dive deep within by merging their minds in the Heart, will attain the eternal and inexhaustible treasure of he grace of the Self.

Verse 1064:  You should know that 'I' the form of consciousness, by enquiring 'Who am I?' with calm deliberation, and then get absorbed in your Swarupam, consciousness.  What purpose is served instead by separating yourself from that consciousness, deluding yourself by taking yourself to be the chidabhasa, the mind-form dwelling in the ruinous sense objects and suffering?

Verse 1115:  The Jnani knows the entire world that appears in consciousness as Pure Consciousness alone. Realizing that the world has no independent reality apart from Consciousness, he will abide calmly in the Self.  He is the wealthy and fortunate one.

Verse 1117:  The Swarupam alone exists in the Swarupam, the nondual fullness that is Pure Consciousnes and supreme grace.
Within it the differences of the 'I' [the seer] and 'this' [the seen]
do not exist.  Therefore, those whose minds have dived deep in that fullness will not suffer and lament in the false life of duality that is an imaginary appearance.

Verse 1222:  That which shines as the residue is the peace that is wholly consciousness.  That indeed is the eternal Sivam.  That residue, the consummate supreme, is aham , the ego-free mauna that is the culmination of liberation.

Arunachala Siva.             
 

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45642
    • View Profile
Re: Universal Consciousness: Beyond all limitations
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2010, 12:38:06 PM »

Dear srkudai,

The 'I' which states I am agitated, is the mind or the ego.  That is
why Pure Consciousness is said to be beyond mind-consciousness.

Arunchala Siva.

amiatall

  • Guest
Re: Universal Consciousness: Beyond all limitations
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2010, 01:24:29 PM »
I will follow the school of srkudai of "Consciousness is ever free. It is without thoughts forever"  :D and add up

To my humble opinion:

the confusion arises because there is no understanding of consciousness alone as such, shining without thoughts even during thoughts. Quite a paradox may seem, but truly, Consciousness is ever thoughtless. Things are. We name it and give it form. But essentially everything just is as it is - without name and form. So, 'I' name is given to wherever attention attaches itself. It is ignorance, because there is no understanding of what 'I' truly is. When it is properly understood what 'I' is, it is left alone without attaching to any-thing. (let us not forget to always question to whom such understanding is needed? every second please).
We say that mind curls up in the Self in deep sleep. Please investigate, what is the difference now and deep sleep, not what books say but really, your own experience, your own heart tells what? Who are You?
The only difference is thoughts, but the essential existence, being is always. Why is the practice? Why some say we need to drive away thoughts? The thoughts is the appearant veil for wakeful sleep. To realize it, the thoughts could be removed (not necessarily), after that, it does not matter.
Great ones hadn't a need to remove thoughts either because of "previous births" or super grasping/understanding/realizing-focused power which worked instantly here and now with 100% devotion. Truth is - thoughts should be left alone. They are not even alive a second!



Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 45642
    • View Profile
Re: Universal Consciousness: Beyond all limitations
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2010, 01:45:36 PM »

Dear everyone,

The discussions came for the purpose of knowing and understanding
the Universal Consciousness.  I shall illustrate Universal Consciousness with three examples. 

1. Swami Vivekananda [after his return from America] was staying
in Belur Math.  During a night, he had no proper sleep.  He was turning from side to side during the night, and this was noticed by some devotees, who were lying in the adjacent room.  In the morning, they asked Swami for the reasons for restless sleep.  Swami Vivekananda then explained:  "I think there is something seriously wrong somewhere in the world. I could sense people crying and running!"  The morning newspapers carried a headline story where it was reported that there was an earthquake in South America and thousands had been killed and some more thousands had been injured.  The book of SRK Math has described the story and also called it as Universal Consciousness.  Not everyone gets such a sense of a danger happening elsewhere in the world.  This is
Pure Consciousness which pervades the whole universe.

2.  Bhagavan Ramana was sitting in the Hall.  Devotees were
vociferously discussing the war news.  Nazi forces had captured
Paris in 4 days and were relentlessly bombing London.  [Eagles
Over London].  The defeat of Allied Forces was expected to happen soon.  At that time, Russia [later Soviet Union] had not participated
in the war as yet.  Bhagavan Ramana said:  'Eh, but Russia....'  He
did not continue the sentence.  Within 6 months, Russia had joined the war, and an angry Nazi forces moved towards Russia and were
nearing Stalingrad.  But the Nazi forces could not put up with the
biting cold of Russia and were limping with handicaps of fever, shivering, and other problems of food etc.,  The Nazi forces thus
lost the battle of Stalingrad.  Soon Russia started their march towards Berlin and the Allied forces including Russia invaded Germany and Berlin was bombarded.  The Allied Forces won the
second world war.  Bhagavan through His universal consciouness,
could visualize this scenario but did not want to say anything in
detail.

3. Once Kavyakanta said that the town of Tiruvannamalai is like
a Sri Chakra and soon a town-ship would evolve around this Asramam.  This was smilingly concurred with by Bhagavan too.
In another 15 years, Ramana Nagar developed.  The Westerners
built cottages on either side of the Asramam.

The Universal Consciousness is Pure Consciousness, where the
Pure Mind pervades the whole universe.  Our consciousness which
is impure, ego-covered, cannot visualize such things concerning the
whole universe.

Arunachala Siva.

     

ramana_maharshi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3557
    • View Profile
Re: Universal Consciousness: Beyond all limitations
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2010, 03:04:02 PM »
well said udai garu.

There is no difference between universal consciousness and normal consciousness.

Subramanian garu,

You said vivekananda has pure consciousness.Can you please let us know if he had pure consciousness always?

Once bhagavan ramana when asked about swami vivekananda he said as below

Quote
30th September, 1936

Talk 252.

D.: Sri Ramakrishna touched Vivekananda and the latter realised Bliss. Is it possible?

M.: Sri Ramakrishna did not touch all for that purpose. He did not create Atma. He did not create Realisation.Vivekananda was ripe.He was anxious to realise. He must have completed the preliminary course in his past births. Such is possible for ripe persons only.

D.: Can the same miracle be worked for all?

M.: If they are fit. Fitness is the point. A strong man controls the weaker man. A strong mind controls the weaker mind. That was what happened in the case cited. The effect was only temporary. Why did Vivekananda not sit quiet? Why did he wander about after such a miracle? Because the effect was only temporary.

Source: TALKS WITH SRI RAMANA MAHARSHI Book

Devotee: Bhagavan, it is said that Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa put his palm on the head of Swami Vivekananda and that the latter had transcendental experience. Could you not do some such thing for me.

Bhagavan smiled and said: Yes, scriptures speak of such dikshas (initiations) and hastha diksha is one of them. But that too is a limitation. When a mighty river runs overflowing its banks, why divert it into a particular channel? Let all those who are thirsty drink to their heart's content and capacity.

-- Quotations and Conversations Found in the Ramana Pictorial Souvenir, 1967

Sources:

1) http://www.arunachala.org/newsletters/2004/?pg=jul-aug
2) Talks With Ramana Maharshi Book


http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=4872.0

Even kavyakanta for that matter is not fully realised which means he is not always having pure consciousness.


Quote
Though a sincere sadhak, Sastri laid his hands on too many pots.
Politics, Spiritual upliftment of Indians through mantra japas,
Congress committee work, visiting various holy places, (he had
visited 55 temples or holy places in India).  His Sankalpas were
many and strong.  When Bhagavan Ramana was informed of his
passing away, and when someone at that time, asked Him, whether
Sastri had attained liberation, Bhagavan Ramana said:  "How can
it be, he had many sankalpas.

http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=5154.msg14318#msg14318