Death of Mind does not mean Thoughtlessness --- Annamalai Swami

[srkudai]

This is From living by the words of bhagavan :

Page 267, conversations with Annamalai Swami

Nothing can cause bondage for the Jnani because his mind is dead. In the absence of mind he knows himself only as consciousness. Because the mind is dead, he is no longer able to identify himself with the body. But even though he knows that he is not the body, its a fact that the body is still alive. That body will continue to live, and the Jnani will continue to be aware of it, until its own karma is exhausted. Because the jnani is aware of the body, he will also be aware of the thoughts and vasanas that arise in that body. None of these vasanas has the power to cause bondage for him because he never identifies with them, but they do have the power to make the body behave in certain ways. The body of the jnani enjoys and experiences thses vasanas although the jnani himself is not affected by them. that is why its some times said that for the jnani there are bhoga vasanas but no bandha vasanas.

The bhoga vasanas differ from jnani to jnani. some jnanis may accumulate wealth, some may sit in silence; some may study the sastras while others may remain illiterate; some may get married and raise families but others may become celibate monks. it is the bhoga vasanas which determine the kind of lifestyle a jnani will lead. The jnani is aware of the consequences of these vasanas without identifying with them. Because of this he never falls back into samsara again.

The vasanas arise because of habits and practices of previous life times. that is why they differ from jnani to jnani. When vasanas rise in ordinary people who still identify with the body and the mind, they cause likes and dislikes. some vasanas are embraced whole heartedly  while others are rejected as being undesirable. These likes and dislikes generate desires and fears which in turn produce more karma. while you are still making judgements about what is good and what is bad, you are identifying with the mind and making new karmas for yourself. when new karma has been created like this, it means that you have to take another birth to enjoy it.

The jnani's body carries out all the acts which are destined for it. But because the jnani makes no judgements about what is good or bad, and because he has no likes and dislikes, he is not creating any new karma for himself. because he knows that he is not the body, he can witness all its activities without getting involved in them in any way. There will be no rebirth for the jnani because once the mind has been destroyed, there is no possibility of any new karma being created.

Love!
Silence

[Subramanian.R]

Dear srkudai,

Annamalai Swami has used the word, bhoga vasanas or bandha
vasanas, which as in Ramana literature, are subha vasanas and
a-subha vasanas.  Then there is not complication at all.
This is like picking a fallen mango fruit in the Hill and eating
it and thieving a mango fruit from the tree.

If there is nothing called Death Mind or Mano-nasam, then
there was no need for Bhagavan Ramana to use this particular
word (as distinct from quiscence of mind) in Who am I?  We
should contemplate on this.  Perhaps, the dead mind acts
with Brahman-mind as the self becomes the Self and lives
for 54 years.

Bhagavan Ramana has said Devaraja Mudaliar:  When
good things come of their own, enjoy them, there is no
karma bandha on them.
 
Arunachala Siva.

[Subramanian.R]

I am still wondering why Bhagavan Ramana should use three
different phrases, mano-nasam, mano-layam and mana-adakkam,
the death of mind, the curling up of the mind and the control
of mind, if these were to mean one and the same. 

I checked up with Guru Vachaka Kovai, where Muruganar has
expanded the teachings of Bhagavan in about 1700 verses
and these verses have been perused, corrected and changed
by Bhagavan Himself. Muruganar speaks about Mind, in about
more than 100 verses and specifically speak about Dead Mind,
(page 406 of David Godman's commentary) in three verses.


924. I declare that even when the mind in the form of thoughts
ceases to function, something remains.  That something, is the
Reality.  Manifesting as time, it operates in a hidden way, abiding
always as the temple of consciousness-bliss.

924. (alternate version)  I affirm that, even when the mind ceases
to function as thoughts, being assuredly exists.  That being forever
as the temple of consciousness-bliss (even thoughit) apparently
comes into existence, at a favourable moment, prior to which it
(apparently) remains concealed.

925. 'Now and then' 'that which is and and that which is not',
'here and there', a mind is without even a trace of such thoughts,
and which shines as the eternal, the one, fully present everywhere, is (indeed) is pure Sivam.

Again in Verse 1122:

Among those whose minds are bound to pramada, those who
are born will die, and those who die will be reborn.  Thoise whose
minds have died through realization of the pure, eternal and changeless reality, that is the cause of liberation exist in the
utter beyond, freed from birth and death.  This you should know.

I do not want to mention copious verses in copious topics.
Those who are interested to understand more may kindly
refer to GVK, English Commentary by David Godman.

Arunachala Siva.       
 

[Subramanian.R]

Sri Lakshmana Sarma (WHO), about whom I mentioned about,
yesterday, in his Sri Ramana Paravidyopanishad, also describes
the concept of mind in a few verses.

Verse 7:  In the Heart, there dwells the Reality, which is Pure
Consciousness, the Real Self.  To be in the Heart, with the
mind QUISCENT, is the Knowledge (Awareness) of Him, and
also the state of Deliverence.

Verse 12:  Hence this world wandering of the self is just a
myth. But this can be verified only in the mind-free state.
"Apart from the mind, there is no ignorance, the mind itself
is Ignorance, which is bondage to life in the world." ("..."
is from Vivekachoodamani.)

Verse 14:  The Self will remain concealed so long as the world
is taken as Real.  It will cease to be so taken, when the
mind is once for all EXTINGUISHED, hence one must strive
for EXTINGUISHING the mind.

Verse 24:  The Mind-free state stated above is itself complete
and endless happiness, since it is the mind itself that covers
up (over-powers) the (natural) happiness (of the Real Self) and
unfolds suffering for every creature.

Verse 633:  Just as one engaged in listening to a story, does
not really hear it, his mind having wandered far away, so the
Sage though (apparently) doing actions, is really not an actor,
because his mind not being full of previous habitual modes
of functioning.

Verse 655:  But the Sage, being immersed in His natural Samadhi, is seen by the ignorant as if He were doing actions, and going
through various bodily and mental actions, and seeing these,
the undiscriminating ones are confused.

Arunachala Siva.         

[amiatall]

I wanted to add some Ramanas' words:

Let him find out if he has been born or if the Self has any birth. He will discover that the Self always exists, that the body which is born resolves itself into thought and that the emergence of thought is the root of all mischief.
At least how i understand it that self-realization does not take in the presence of thoughts, because thoughts are shadows and they obstruct the vision, that's why practice is so important to train the consciousness to concentrate on itself and know itself fully and totally as it is.
In the book "All is one" (very recommended by Ramana and that is the book when i had been struck by direct knowledge and it changed my view totally) it is stated that understanding of this knowledge is not yet the realization itself. It is neo-advaitins that declare "you are that" do what you want you are free and they bring so much confusion because it is not explained that mind is still active and that practice is necessary till there is no activity of mind as the separate entity which exists no more.

[Subramanian.R]

Dear amiatall,

You are correct.  The neo-advaitins after some practice, thinks
that they are the Self.  They mistake the reflected consciousness,
as the Self and go on prattling without continuous intense practice.

Incidentally, Ellam Onre, (All is One) is the book  recommended
by Bhagavan Ramana to Annamalai Swami.  I think, He wrote
that small book in His own handwriting and gave it to Him.
It is like Siva Nataraja writing Tiruvachakam for Saint Manikkavachagar.

Arunachala Siva.   

[amiatall]

I never said that Annamalai is neo advaitin or whatever. He is True Heart.
What I say is that thinker must go away AND realization cannot happen in the presence of thoughts.
In the process of practice many were confronted with this difficulty - thoughts. Then Swamis pointed out that "you are not thoughts, please proceed, be still, don't move".
You don't need to stop thoughts, thoughts will disappear in the process of practice. Maybe what is the meaning of a 'thought' for me it is not for you that's why such confusion. So i elaborate a bit further.

What i mean here by thought is verbal 'i' , this verbal 'i' is a center which attracts all other thoughts and makes a story of its own, when this 'i' is sought it is seen that it is NOT, then where is those thoughts that surrounded it? NONE. When this 'i' is destroyed to never arise anymore it means that the process of thoughts which goes on non-stop in any human and gives suffering is BROKEN. Now you are pure awareness knowing yourself as you are. When there is no one to hold the process of thoughts how can there be any process of thoughts? BUT! As all past karmas and future karmas are now broken, the prarabdha karma remains and only because of that - thought springs here and thought springs there sometimes but it subsides immediately without anyone to claim the ownership of them. Now you are always awareness itself aware of yourself, your state is thoughtless - with some thoughts springing sometimes there and here which do no harm.
Why silence is so important and is stressed out? Because only in silence you gain back your subtle attention through which a discrimination of what you are not can happen.

So this is my understanding maybe it is yours too but in different language. Just pointing out my direct experience that that when thoughts subside there is more clarity of being, more love, more peace, no agitation. When you pay attention to yourself which is thoughtless awareness, thoughts start lose a grip and disappear of themselfs, that is the meaning of "you don't need to kill mind it is non existent" and it is true - in the presence of tremendous Light no shadows can appear.
You can function very well (and even better) without any processes of thought, you are itself knowledge so you KNOW and ACT.
That is my experience: when i was young there were thoughts such as "i should go there and do this and this" but thanks to God giving me sharp intellect for that particular moment i saw that i knew already what i was going to do so the question arose what are these thoughts in the head that keep bugging me, and that's when my path for knowledge of myself began. I know already what i am doing so why thoughts? ego stirs things up and makes things more complicated and suffering happens. I bow to Bhagavan who said "Mind is nothing more than a bundle of thoughts" , "Mind must be destroyed" you see the connection between those two statements? That bundle which makes a KNOT must go with a center which claims to be an 'i'.
I want to stress out very much that this is my understanding and it should not be taken as something to deny or to accept in accordance to spiritual books and swamis.
All is well.

[S.Subramanian]

It is not the mind (thoughts) which drives the car or does the office work.  The buddhi (intellect) is behind these functions.  There is greater reflection of the consciousness in the intellect.  But when the sun shines does it matter whether the moon shines or not? Maharshi has repeatedly said that when one remains as the self outer activities will take place automatically. 

[nonduel]

Dear All,

Thoughts are like clouds passing in the sky...is it worth the effort to study and analyse them and/or find ways and means to get rid of the clouds so as to see the sun?

Thoughts surge by themselves and if unattended dissolve by themselves in the same way they arrived.

So many questions for passing clouds 

With Love

[Nishta]

An interesting topic.

Whilst "Death of Mind does not mean Thoughtlessness" the sadhak is nevertheless required to strive towards mental stillness as this is the only means by which the ego may die.

    Be still and know that I AM God. So stillness is the aim of the seeker.
    All that is required to realise the True Self is to "Be Still" [Maharshi].

At ego death it is found that the Self is thought-free, yet mind may or may not continue to have thoughts as per its destiny.

    In the realised man the mind may be active or inactive, the Self alone remains for him [Maharshi].

[srkudai]

An interesting topic.

Whilst "Death of Mind does not mean Thoughtlessness" the sadhak is nevertheless required to strive towards mental stillness as this is the only means by which the ego may die.

    Be still and know that I AM God. So stillness is the aim of the seeker.
    All that is required to realise the True Self is to "Be Still" [Maharshi].

At ego death it is found that the Self is thought-free, yet mind may or may not continue to have thoughts as per its destiny.

    In the realised man the mind may be active or inactive, the Self alone remains for him [Maharshi].

Dear Nishta,
        Nice observation. There are two kinds of stillness in vedanta , technically. cit samadhi and citta samadhi. citta samadhi means stopping thoughts. cit samadhi means relaxing in awareness. Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi talks about cit samadhi where one resolves in awareness and therefore is stillness itself in true essence. Citta samadhi is usually by force ... I do not particularly recommend it. Cit samadhi is total relaxation in the Awareness - being here and now, present moment ... infact its not just living in the present moment... rather its being the presence ! You are the Presence is Self Knowledge. Being it is living it and so one is always 24 7 in the present moment : conscious, relaxed and ever fresh.

Love!
Silence

[Beloved Abstract]

find the thinker