Author Topic: The glimpse of the Self between two thoughts  (Read 11551 times)

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47994
    • View Profile
The glimpse of the Self between two thoughts
« on: October 19, 2009, 12:18:31 PM »
We have all experienced that in the interval between two thoughts,
we get a glimpse of the Self, for a trice of a second.  When the
mind is without activity, then the Self reveals itself, albeit for a
fraction of a second.  This interval becomes longer, as our thoughts
subside and at once stage, where there are no thoughts at all, then the Self shines forth permanently.

WE might have had this experience whenever we go to a Temple,
which is crowded on a day.  There are long queues, say in Tiruvannamalai or Guruvayur, and the queue moves slowly.  We
get restless.  But suddenly, between two persons in the queue, we
get a glimpse of Annamalai or Guruvayurappan, with all the lights
shining in the sanctum sanctorum.  We get immensely happy.
WE now become eager to see this more permanently.  When our
turn comes in the queue, we stand close to the God and see him
to our heart's content.  This is the same as Self realization.

Bhagavan Ramana has said in many of His conversations, to look
into the intervals between two thoughts.

Arunachala Siva.   

Chuck Cliff

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 51
    • View Profile
Re: The glimpse of the Self between two thoughts
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2009, 11:35:32 PM »
Quote
How come we can say there is a glimpse of Self?
  Don't know, but it's a fact it seems that we do.  Perhaps language is throwing us a loop, perhaps what is meant is we remember "something", thus making it an experience -- experiences are something we can remember. The Self remains untouched by either glimpse or memory.
There's a glory in the morning because the earth turns 'round, and a promise in the evening, when the sun goes down.

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47994
    • View Profile
Re: The glimpse of the Self between two thoughts
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2009, 12:00:04 PM »
The Self is ever there.  But the Self is hidden around with the
smoke or dirt like a chimney.  The glimpse is first revealed,
when some dirt is removed by the grace of Guru or God.  This
gives us a determination to remove all the dirt around the
chimney.  When all smoke or dirt is removed, the light shines
in its full glory.  Bhagavan Ramana says in Sri Arunachala Ashtakam,
Verse 5:
.... Mani kadainthena manam manam enum kallil
Maru ara kadaiya in aruL oLi mevum....

When you rub the mind*, the crystal,  with mind** that is stone,
then the crystal will shine!

* mind here is the mind = crystal
** mind here is the Who am I? enquiry = stone
When the mind shines, It is the Self.  Then the stone, the mind
is no longer required.  This is the paradox.

This rubbing of the mind or rubbing of the chimney glass makes
the Self reveal itself.

Arunachala Siva.

amiatall

  • Guest
Re: The glimpse of the Self between two thoughts
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2009, 05:12:37 PM »
To my mind, we need only to remember 'who is watching?' or 'who am i?'. It means if there is thought we don't identify with it, if there is silence we don't identify with it we always remain our Self - changeless.
But to remain as such, i think, that's why it is mentioned in books to keep attention on the gap, because in the gap it is easier to GRASP THE SELF. It means, it is easy to see the one which is seeing, while thoughts make it difficult, because of strong identification with them. So identifying with silence one dis-identifies from thoughts and first step is achieved - you are not your thoughts. Now, who is watching silence? etc.. It is all for seekers, so we can't speak from Absolute point of view. Only from Absolute point of view nothing is as it appears, but that absolute is now a jiva due to identification with limited objects.

nonduel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 292
    • View Profile
Re: The glimpse of the Self between two thoughts
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2009, 05:13:00 PM »
Dear Skrudai-ji,

Namaste,

Good point. I also gave that example relating to "gap/thought" and you are right, the Self is always "there". This example though is an help to understand that the Self, the mirror is dirty when thoughts are rising and the mind leads one outward in illusion. One can say, "away" from the clean mirror, from the Self. Like when we day-dream and leave our abidance in the self.

I think this is also what Sri Subramanian-ji was expressing, not that the Self is "absent".

I also hesitate often to reply, because I also cannot stress too much the fact that one IS ALWAYS the SELF. Furthermore, I cannot stress enough that there is no "attaining". I have the absolute conviction that there is no-things to do. It is the Ribhu Gita that  helped me get rid of this lifelong yearning for God with its frustrations and tears.

It as often been stressed to have faith in the Guru's "I Am That". If one has this faith then there cannot be a doubt whether one is "That" or is not. This is where the bhavana comes in. It is an acceptance of the truth. If one continues to "do" to merit, for Grace, to attain Realisation then isn't that a lack of faith in the guru? This does not implies that one sits like a green plant.

One just has to BE. Isn't this what Bhagavan taught through vichara?  Like Skrudai wrote, I also stress this point too much, please consider this as a sadhaka respectfully expressing his understanding with Love. Free to be accepted or refuse.

Love
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 05:28:02 PM by nonduel »
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

silentgreen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 757
    • View Profile
Re: The glimpse of the Self between two thoughts
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2009, 05:50:19 PM »
Many of the proponents of "just be" have often put self-effort before to reach that state.
The self-effort they had put did not create any bondage but on the other hand gave their tamo-guna a good shaking and the "self-state" stood revealed.

If a half-sleepy person under a blanket remains like that all life and think that I am "just being", he may remain the same...just being...half-sleepy.

Someone asked Bhagavan that he does not want self-realisation but only longing for God.
Bhagavan replied that if he gets longing, self-realisation will be forced upon him.
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

viswanathan

  • Guest
Re: The glimpse of the Self between two thoughts
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2009, 01:04:21 AM »
Dear devotees,
                    In  the article titled "Atma Vichara Padhikam" by Sadhu Om Swamigal (Oct 2007 issue of Mountain path) the second para of article reads as under.

"The 'thinker' alone is jiva(the individual who owns up thinking). The one who merely exists(bereft of all thoughts) is Isvara (the godhead or sakshi chaitanya).
 If the thinker jiva desires to remain still by merely focusing the attention on the sense of pure existance in the form of 'I am', such attention will quell all thinking activity(pravrtti) and transform itself into mode of pure Being(nivrtti) consciousness."
                 
                   From the above,my understanding is that when we turn our attention inwards on the feeling of 'I', for a brief period we are in a state of being free from thoughts and this state of  Being  which we term as interval between thoughts is  the consciousness/self.
Best regards
Viswanathan

silentgreen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 757
    • View Profile
Re: The glimpse of the Self between two thoughts
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2009, 09:13:02 AM »
Dear srkudai and viswanathan,

Thanks for your reply.
What you say is true.
However I feel it all depends on how one actually defines self-effort.
It is true that Self is there at all times.

However to get to the substratum of all thoughts from a position of identification with thoughts require keenness and effort. It will not happen automatically if a person goes on gratifying his desires and thinks that since he is the Self, everything is ok. The Self is still powering the effort for gratification of desires, since nothing can happen without the substratum of Self. However that person remains still ignorant of the pure form of the Self, the ever joyful substratum.

Now whether one thinks that turning one's attention inwards to the state of Being free from thought is an effort or lack of effort is upto oneself. However introspection does not happen automatically. It often requires one to be free from external distractions initially till abidance happens in the substratum.

Many sadhaks who start sadhana already know from their spiritual teacher, other persons or books that Self is already there and not to be obtained as a fruit of effort. They already know that effort here is not for any generative results but illuminative, an illumination which is always present, which they want to experience in a purer state and abide in it.
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

amiatall

  • Guest
Re: The glimpse of the Self between two thoughts
« Reply #8 on: October 23, 2009, 02:27:47 PM »
silentgreen, to my mind, effort is absolute necessity, because you made an effort(AND STRONG ONE) to identify with that which you are not, so you need the same effort to stabilize in Self knowledge. But Bhagavan somewhere stated that to hold attention on the Self is not an effort, because you are being yourself at that moment so we can say from this standpoint of view that effort is to think! and not to be. Furthermore,

Dear devotees,
                    In  the article titled "Atma Vichara Padhikam" by Sadhu Om Swamigal (Oct 2007 issue of Mountain path) the second para of article reads as under.

"The 'thinker' alone is jiva(the individual who owns up thinking). The one who merely exists(bereft of all thoughts) is Isvara (the godhead or sakshi chaitanya).
 If the thinker jiva desires to remain still by merely focusing the attention on the sense of pure existance in the form of 'I am', such attention will quell all thinking activity(pravrtti) and transform itself into mode of pure Being(nivrtti) consciousness."
                 
                   From the above,my understanding is that when we turn our attention inwards on the feeling of 'I', for a brief period we are in a state of being free from thoughts and this state of  Being  which we term as interval between thoughts is  the consciousness/self.
Best regards
Viswanathan


Sadhu says that 'I' transforms into mode of pure Being consciousness, but he does not state anything further. So we can't conclude that this is the final state, it is pure Being. But isn't there something that sees this Being and all activities carried by it? Being comes, Being goes but who remains always?

silentgreen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 757
    • View Profile
Re: The glimpse of the Self between two thoughts
« Reply #9 on: October 23, 2009, 03:02:07 PM »
Dear skrudai,

What you say is true. Experience of the Self is always there.
However that experience is for most of us Self identified with mind tendencies.
The experience of Self in its pure form is very much different from this.

It is like experiencing city air and mountain air. The presence of air is same in both cases.
However experiencing mountain air is much different from experiencing dust-coated city air.
Even though the city person may be knowing very well that he is experiencing the same ever-present air, the experience is not the same. The mountain person on the other hand is not experiencing any altered state of air (like another state of mind), but air free from all contaminations.

Doing sadhana may not always be taken as opting for a new state of mind.
It may result in dis-identification instead of identification.

A person may have an ambition of acquiring a house, a car and name for himself.
This ambition will result in one state of consciousness because energy is following the thread of "I" and its desires. Another person may have an ambition of getting freed from all ambitions. This may result in freeing all ambitions including the first ambition.

Experiencing Self in its purer form should go in this direction:
(1) Gradually give inner joy from within without any external effort
(2) Gradually end suffering in life although life problems may not end.
This is for the simple reason that the ahamkara "I" which gives the feeling of "I suffer" starts fading.
These feelings are not due to getting any new state of mind but due to fading of mind itself.

Now one should be true to oneself whether the experience of the Self which one feels always are in these directions.

When a devotee feels peace in his/her heart due to singing devotional songs in the temple, it may not be due to any new state of mind, because mind cannot generate any peace of its own. So the peace must essentially be due to experiencing Self in its purer form due to surrendering to God.


Dear amiatall,

In deep meditation, Self can be felt as pure consciousness in such a way that the confusion who is observing the being will be totally answered. The doubt who is observing the being comes due to the root "I" or ahamkara. When ahamkara starts fading, this doubt also starts fading and there remains pure observation.
However this meditative state can normally be reached by divine grace when one is deeply interested in Self and in a divinely charged atmosphere like Virupaksha cave.
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

ramanaduli

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 851
    • View Profile
Re: The glimpse of the Self between two thoughts
« Reply #10 on: October 23, 2009, 03:40:29 PM »
Dear sirs,

Good evening. After long silence this reply is coming. Bhagavan also said to look into intervals between two thoughts. I think He never told what He saw.
instead He became His experience.  If we try to put into the words... then mind only will speak. It is like a UMAI KANDA KANAVU)

When we see a statue we say the sculptor chiselled out the figure, No on the other hand he took out the unwanted portion of the stone.
In the same when we do not give importance to our thoughts whether it comes or not with gap or without gap .... that is all.


Ramanaduli

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47994
    • View Profile
Re: The glimpse of the Self between two thoughts
« Reply #11 on: October 23, 2009, 05:35:43 PM »
Dear Ramanaduli,

Welcome to the Forum, after a long break.  Umai Kanda Ulagam,
Like the dumb who has seen the world, it is inexpressible.  Yes.
The experience can never be explained.  It is all Silence.  Sometimes, great Jnanis like Bhagavan Ramana and Jnanadeva,
expressed it to others, because the seekers should know
it for their own upliftment.  It is for their benefit, that Jnanis
speak out, it is all inspired speech, the speech of the Gods.

The whole discussion here under this Topic is regarding the
thoughts and the occasional thoughtless state, which should
become permanent, when the sadhana becomes fruitful.  It
is again here, the Guru comes to the help of sincere seekers.
He lifts them up when you are half way towards the rim of the
well and you are unable to climb the remaining height.

Bhagavan Ramana says in Sri Arunachala Ashtakam:  (Verse 8)

Manam enum kallil maRu ara kadaiya, nin aruL oLi mevum....

When the mind is rubbed off its impurities, Bhagavan Ramana
uses here specifically the word "MaRu" which means impurity.
If and when this is removed, nin aruL oLi mevum, Your
graceful Light will shine forth!

Arunachala Siva.
     

ramanaduli

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 851
    • View Profile
Re: The glimpse of the Self between two thoughts
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2009, 07:02:31 PM »
Dear Subramaniyan ji

In waking state we have occasional thoughtless state. It depends the aspirant's practice. But everyone become thoughtless state during the deep sleep.
In both states, it is difficult to express the experiences like cricket commentators. Many thefts happens during the deep sleep state. In the same
way, in waking state also we miss so many things what is going around.


Ramanaduli

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47994
    • View Profile
Re: The glimpse of the Self between two thoughts
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2009, 08:10:42 PM »
Dear Ramanaduli,

In deep sleep, whether you sleep for 4 hours or 10 hours, the
mind, by God's Grace (Refer Who am I?) mind gets curled up
in the Self.  Only breath comes in and goes out.  Since the mind
is not functioning, since there is darkness, there is bliss (Ananda-
maya Kosa) but this good sleep can be spoken about, only in
waking state.  Whereas in the waking state, the mind is more
awake, the world is seen and thoughts spring up.  There is no
bliss. But for Jnanis like Bhagavan Ramana, both are the same.

Arunachala Siva.   

silentgreen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 757
    • View Profile
Re: The glimpse of the Self between two thoughts
« Reply #14 on: October 26, 2009, 08:52:17 AM »
Dear srkudai,

What I meant by peace is also bliss associated with peace.
I agree that all peace whether due to entering AC room from hot sun, sense enjoyment, drug or prayer comes from the Self. However the peace and joy given by AC, sense and drug, which takes place due to suspension of disturbances will be up to the spiritual maturity of the person prior to those activities. They will not result in discovery of the source of peace and bliss, the Self in its pure form. (Let us leave the addictions caused by those activities). By prayer and self-enquiry a person who surrenders his ego at the feet of the God (or Self) may discover the inner expansiveness within, an expansion which is filled with bliss. A presence is felt beyond the ego. By repeated application of AC, sense and drug, even if they do not have any addictive effects will not result in this inner expansion and discovering the presence beyond the ego.
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...