Author Topic: Ashtavakra Gita - 3 [Spiritual and non-spiritual]  (Read 3175 times)

srkudai

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Ashtavakra Gita - 3 [Spiritual and non-spiritual]
« on: September 18, 2009, 03:06:51 PM »
Previous Page: http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=3868.0

Thus we understand that all search is an attempt for liberation in some sense. There is a sense of incompleteness and when we try to get out of the sense of incompleteness, its seeking. When the sense of incompleteness is removed, we feel liberated or fulfilled -- or complete.

This is same for all kinds of seeking, be it spiritual or materialistic. When a person is seeking pleasure or sense of completeness in the objects of the world... that is a materialistic search or a non-spiritual search.
When the person knows that the material objects cannot give a lasting sense of completeness and starts to look within, its a spiritual search.

A story comes to my mind. Siddartha [Gautama Buddha] and his wife Yashodara made a very good pair. They enjoyed each others company, had similar likings etc. Yashodhara used to use her free time to feed the poor, nurse their injuries and diseases and thus she tried to serve. Siddartha encouraged this a lot and he himself helped her several times but was always more inclined towards a Complete Revolution. That is Total Liberation from Suffering [or Sense of incompleteness]. In one discussion between the Two, gautama says that he wants to go in search of a way that could lead to Total Liberation from suffering. Yashodhara says "I am not sure if there is such a way, i would rather do what little i can do. instead of bothering about a total liberation, i shall be satisfied with what ever little i can do".
Siddartha says "But still there is oldage, disease and death. none can escape suffering. helping physically is not going to help them save themselves from the suffering caused by emotions, jealousy, greed etc. i want to find a way out of all suffering"
Yashodhara even knew that Siddartha would be leaving. She just took a promise that he would return and teach the Way once he knows it.


This is the exact description. Whoever is finding a "Time Dependent" sense of completeness; that is not spiritual search.
When someone starts finding time independent sense of completeness. That is search for SAT or Truth.

Spiritual community has two terms for these. SAT means that which is non-changing. Always as it is. SAT is the Truth.
Mithya is the name given to anything that is changing, now there and latter not there. Mithya is only like a Dream. Since mithya means its changing, clinging to mithya one cannot find a total sense of completeness. This is the fundamental law. We shall proceed by the Buddha's way and get a grasp of how such a total completeness can be found. That is, if we have not already dismissed Siddhartha's search as an idealist's dreams.

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Love!
Silence

« Last Edit: September 22, 2009, 04:59:40 PM by srkudai »

amiatall

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Re: Ashtavakra Gita - 3 [Spiritual and non-spiritual]
« Reply #1 on: September 18, 2009, 04:41:47 PM »
Quote
When the person knows that the material objects cannot give a lasting sense of completeness and starts to look within, its a spiritual search.

Here the need arises to understand what is within. Is it in relation to space? Or is it in relation to time? Both are not true. This 'within' should not be understood as a place in the object.
As long as one says "the Self is within me", one gets caught in body shackles.
From Swami Krishnananda:
"So this ‘within’ in which the Self seems to be situated is the ‘within’ ‘this body.’ You have confined the notion of yourself to your bodily existence finally, though your intention is to break through the barriers of bodily consciousness in search for the Self. The thief has subtly entered through the back door, while you are keeping police and army at the front door to prevent an entry of the dacoits. They have come through the back door and they have done their work, because the Self which is supposed to be the means to break through the barriers of bodily consciousness has confined itself to the body only, again, for, when the Self is within, it cannot be but within the body. If it is not within the body, within what is it, when you say that it is within? Here is a difficulty before you."
And indeed it is a difficulty to which many fall prey to.

Further contemplation on this matter by Krishnananda:
"We have, again, here the inveterate conviction that the Self is ‘within’ ‘me’, well, that may be God. Where is God? The answer is, ‘God is within;’ whose ‘within?’ As pointed out, this concept of ‘within’ is a tantalising thing; one cannot say, where is this ‘within’ and ‘within which person’ is God sitting? We may, of course, say, ‘within everybody.’ Here is a subtle difficulty that may be posed before you once again. That which is within everything is inconceivable to the mind, because that which is within everything has lost the very meaning of ‘within,’ because you have conceded that it is within everything; therefore, not ‘within me only.’ Hence, the word ‘within’ may not apply to God. You cannot also say that God is without. That which is within has also to be without if you conclude that it is within everybody. But that which is within cannot be without, and that which is without cannot be within, and if you say that it is both within and without, your mind will stop thinking. We do not know what we are speaking about. Here is a matter for decision only by a competent master. How are we to encounter in our consciousness that which is the Self, which is God, which is within, which is without, and yet not within and not without? How are we going to think of this? How are we to conceive this? The difficulty in conceiving and entertaining the consciousness of this mystery arises, again, due to the impurities of the mind which we have not got rid of by humble service. I repeat, again, that this is not an old-fashioned system. There is no other way than to be submissive and humble before the might of this tremendous mystery we call God, we call the Self.

There is no end to this process, and the concept of end and terminus also arises on account of the notion of space and time. Someone told me the other day, ‘after all, this effort has to end.’ Why does this idea of end arise in the mind? The end notion arises because of the beginning notion. And notions of beginning and end arise because of the notion of time."




matthias

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Re: Ashtavakra Gita - 3 [Spiritual and non-spiritual]
« Reply #2 on: September 18, 2009, 05:04:17 PM »
as soon as we enter the non-seeking mind, as they call it in zen, then the search ends, and instead we rest as the eternal now.....it is a relaxation into the now, the body energy is not surpressed, the mindis at ease, thoughts arise or not....we are content...

why does it end? because the  time and space notion simply fall away when we enter the eternal now....they are not in the focus....

therefore it seems to begin and end...

the next thing is I might start to realize the "shifts" during meditaiton or my normal day activity....I may "enter" and "leave" the natural state...so there is something happening, it not that the natural state is blank, without thoughts or the knowing and percieving quality of hte mind...it is this but pure and unobstructed...so much more alive then the "ordinary" mind....

but this cannot be  (becaus enlightened mind is the ordinary mind)

so what happens? I think these are simple openings, ...and they show that the sadhana starts to work...

if I cling to such openings then my meditaiton is lost, if I sit down and try to be in this special state again, because it felt so true and right...then Iam simply lost..

in fact the whole idea, that Iam doing this, that this is my personal experience is illusion....

all sense of Iam doing, Iam meditating, Iam a spiritual practicioner, Iam blessed, iam a disciple of this or that guru etc. are part of the mind-game..

the only thing one can do is to be unshakable in his or her practice, and also prey for all sentient-beeings..

amiatall

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Re: Ashtavakra Gita - 3 [Spiritual and non-spiritual]
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2009, 06:13:37 PM »
Yes matthias. Here is some experience of a dream:

I am walking down the street in the dream not realizing at all that it is a dream. It seems so real as in waking that no question arises of its reality. Now suddenly I stop and look at my watch and it dawns on me that "wait a minute, i don't use wristwatch at all" and what happens next truelly explains mind, some voice (i don't know where from) says "no no everything is fine you have a wristwatch and now you are at shop" after this you forget about watch because you are listening and are occupied with mind. Now the further I dream the more i have these "waking calls" like seeing me doing something else then i used to and having what i have not in waking state. These happenings start to turn my attention from dream world and as long as i try to turn my attention away to , for example, "who is dreaming?", the louder the voice i hear "no no you are not dreaming you are now in the park walking to your work" (totally diverting attention) and similar statements.
So long as i question who am i? in a dream, i wake up to this waking world not able to stay in a dream, because i remember who am i at that particular point, and at that particular point i remember that i am from "waking dream", so i go "there" to this world. Such is a power of mind. Now, i woke up because i knew that this is not "reality" and there is "reality" behind it. It means, that i HAD KNOWLEDGE of this waking reality that helped me to wake up from a dream.

I think similar analogy is with this world too. This world takes longer to wake up than a dream because we have TIME AND SPACE factors involved in our thinking. While in a dream such factors exists as a dream part, but they don't occupy US.
Faith is necessity in this path. And the most important is to
be unshakable in his or her practice, and also prey for all sentient-beeings..

amiatall

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Re: Ashtavakra Gita - 3 [Spiritual and non-spiritual]
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2009, 06:16:40 PM »
amiatall,
       :) You are jumping ahead :)  --- the class has not progressed to that level yet. Janaka just asked "tell me what is jnana" ... ;) and Ashtavakra has just started explaining.

yes ... "within", but within what?
as such ... the understanding to gain here is that no changing object can give that completeness.

The point is ...Ashtavakra is showing the Truth ... giving a Darshan of the Truth ... step by step ...
as you are already a good student of Advaita you jumped ahead ... but if there are other students who are not as good, they may be confused ... so hold on ! that will come later.
;)

Love!
Silence


Sorry, just the need arose to contemplate on this subject because it appeared to be an important point. And it is because i haven't read Ashtavakra.
No more jumping ahead.

Peace

matthias

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Re: Ashtavakra Gita - 3 [Spiritual and non-spiritual]
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2009, 01:13:58 PM »
dear amiatall

I think and feel that allthough the fundamental understanding may be planted in myself, the growing and ripening is the work that takes the effort and hardships...

and jet the grace and love of bhagawan and other great saints and sages, on occassions grant me insights and days that are full of love and ease....they also grant me the hardships of course

you see but the vasanas are so deeply rooted that this is always just a wink of my true potential, just an appertizer

and slowly I "see" my delusions (some of them), you know one year ago I felt like iam close to perfect enlightment :) ...

now I have the strengt to see some of my faults...

because I think that buddha is as buddha does....this is a ver yimportant statement

the fundamental undestanding and the insihgts into what we really are, is very very important, but if we still approach life like Karl Smith (nothing against karl Smith he might be a great meditator, but I dont know him)...then what is this understanding? a mere fart in the wind  ;D
  
« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 12:08:52 PM by matthias »