Author Topic: Ulladu Narpadu - Anubandam (6)  (Read 7018 times)

Subramanian.R

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Ulladu Narpadu - Anubandam (6)
« on: July 28, 2008, 02:41:51 PM »
Verses 18 to 27.  These 10 verses of Ulladu Narpadu - Anubandam,
constitute a chapter called, Upaasanaa Prakaranam, meaning the
ideas for meditation.

Verse 18 and 19, are translations from Sanskrit composition called
Ashtanga  Hrudayam.   These speak about the Heart on the right side,
Bhagavan's one of the central teachings.  David Godman says that
the Heart is everywhere and right side of the chest need not be a
focal point.  That is a different issue about which a raging controversy
is going on his blog.  The English translation of Aruthur Osborne is:-

"Between the two paps, below the chest, above the stomach, there
are six organs of various colours.  Of these, one, looking like a lily bud,
is the Heart at two digits' distance to the right of the centre."

"Its mouth is closed. Within the cavity is seated a heavy darkness,
filled with all desires, all the great nerves are centred there; the
home it is of breath, mind and light of knowledge."

Verse 20, is a translation of two verses,  from Prabhulinga Leela, a Kannada work, by Allamma Prabhu.  Allamma Prabhu is one of four saints of Veera Saiva movement, about whom I have written in Speaking of Siva.
The verses begin, 'Guhe yelle kelatmananda....'   and  'adhu nimitatala
akila jeevare hrudaya vallabhane.....'  It appears under Goraknatha
Samavadha, chapter 19, verses 45 & 46).  One Thuraimangalam
Sivaprakasa Swamigal, has translated Prabhulinga Leela in Tamil
verses.

Arunachala Siva.

nonduel

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Re: Ulladu Narpadu - Anubandam (6)
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2008, 05:37:42 PM »
Dear Subramanian,

I would appreciate and be gratefull if you could express your understanding and knowledge of two subjects. The heart on the right side and also Bhagavan' teaching about the breath. I think it is called pranayana (?).

With references on the scriptures and Sri Ramana, if I am not asking too much.
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Ulladu Narpadu - Anubandam (6)
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2008, 12:15:16 PM »
Dear non duel, I shall explain to the extent I know.  Practising
self enquiry with the idea that the Heart is on the right side, as
mentioned in Ulladu Narpadu - Anubandam, will help you to merge
in the Self.  Bhagavan has said - 'Hrudaya Guhara madhye kevalam
Brahmam matram, that is, the in the centre of the Heart Cave, there is
only Brahman.  This is what I am practising.  But David says, as you
have said, the Heart Centre is the place where the 'I' finally withdraws
and curles up within, and it is only for destruction of the 'I' thought but
self-enquiry should not be practised keeping the Heart Centre, as the
focal point, since Brahman is all pervasive.  I beg to differ from David
Godman.  You can practise in a way that suits you best.

As regards, 'Pranayama',  ' Breath control' , there are several conventional practises.  Books say that the inhalation/retention/exhalation, that is,
kevala, kumbaha, and rechaka, should be in proportion of 1:2:1 or
2:3:1 etc., etc.,  But Bhagavan has clearly said that all these number games are only for people who  take up yoga-marga, bretah-control methods, and then go to various centres on the spinal cord etc.,  He said
for self-enquiry, which is jnana-marga, one should only 'watch' the
breath, with thoughtless self-enquiry.  The breath will become, in due course, steady and regular and this will help further for the practise to proceed.

Arunachala Siva.

 
 
   

nonduel

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Re: Ulladu Narpadu - Anubandam (6)
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2008, 05:56:00 PM »
Dear Subramanian,

Thank for prayanama.

About the heart on the right side debate, I am still uncertain. The main difficulty, for myself, is that it implies that the Self has a form like an object and resides in a location, the heart cave. The Self is All pervasive, thus how can one "meditate", do Self-Enquiry, while giving a form to the Self. This is duality.

Then, Sri Ramana said to "dive within" which implies an "outside" and is duality. As long as one believes he-is-the-body, there is an inside and an outside. Consequnetly, the "dive within" is for the Sadhaka.

So, it could be both. Hum???
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

SANKAR

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Re: Ulladu Narpadu - Anubandam (6)
« Reply #4 on: July 30, 2008, 07:19:36 AM »
Dear Subramanian,

Thank for prayanama.

About the heart on the right side debate, I am still uncertain. The main difficulty, for myself, is that it implies that the Self has a form like an object and resides in a location, the heart cave. The Self is All pervasive, thus how can one "meditate", do Self-Enquiry, while giving a form to the Self. This is duality.

Then, Sri Ramana said to "dive within" which implies an "outside" and is duality. As long as one believes he-is-the-body, there is an inside and an outside. Consequnetly, the "dive within" is for the Sadhaka.

So, it could be both. Hum???

DEAR SIR,

RIGHT LEFT IS NOTHING AFTER REACHING THE SELF, IT IS ALL BEFORE REACHING SELF, AS WE ARE THINKING AS BODY OURSELF WITH ILLUSION OF EGO.

AS A SADHAKA ONE MAY EXPERINCE THE FEELING OF PULSTION ON RIGHT SIDE OF CHEST FOR SOME TIME; THAT IS RIGHT AS I ALSO HAD THAT EXPERIANCE


AS YOU SAY NO LT, RT AFTER DIVING AND IN SELF

A TREE COMES FROM A SEED AND GIVES MANY SEEDS. WHICH COMES FROM WHERE. WHICH COMES FIRST ENQUIRE.
IT IS SIMILAR, THE INFINITE SELF EXIST AS IT IS AND EVERYTHING SPROUTS FROM THAT. BUT WE BE A SEED/SELF INSTEAD OF SPOROUTING FROM THAT WE MUST REMAIN IN SOURCE ONLY.

AM I RIGHT PLS FORGIVE IF WRONG AND CLARIFY
KANNAN MEERA SANKAR

Subramanian.R

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Re: Ulladu Narpadu - Anubandam (6)
« Reply #5 on: July 30, 2008, 12:55:08 PM »
Dear non duel,

Verse 8 of Ulladu Narpadu - Anubandam, says that one has to

i. dive deep into the Heart Centre
ii. or control the breath and sink into the Heart Centre

The same verse is also appearing in Ramana Gita, Chapter II.

The description of the Heart Centre is in Upasana Prakarana or
the ideas of meditation, in Ulladu Narpadu - Anubandam verses
18 to 17.

Now your question proper.  No doubt, no doubt, this is for the
'sadhaka' or the meditator or seeker or devotee.  During the
'sadhakam' that is practice, there is always duality, you and the
Heart-Centre, me and the Heart-Centre.  This is as I said in the previous
post, for the 'I'  to descend and curl up into the Heart-Centre.  David
Godman does not have any doubt about Heart-Centre, on the right
side of the chest.  What he says is that there is no need for a focal point
since it means duality.  But I said, that the practitioners should have
duality.  The duality will disappear once one realizes the Self.  Then,
the Heart is not only on the right side of the chest but is also everywhere, both in and out.  At that stage, you and I will not be writing anything
in the Forum, for there is nothing more to say or know.  Perhaps, we
may, if at all, we write, it will only to tell others our experience.  Do
not say, then, that is duality!  If this duality is not there, then there
would not be any teachings or books from the realized souls to
the posterity for following.

Arunachala Siva.

         

nonduel

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Re: Ulladu Narpadu - Anubandam (6)
« Reply #6 on: July 30, 2008, 07:38:16 PM »
Dear Subramanian,

This is also what I was trying to convey. Self-Enquiry is duality and for the Sadhaka. One is "diving" to reach the Self and until the mind, the ego is destroyed, dissolved, one is in duality. Thus, both understanding are right.

But my dear Subramanian, the only aspect that I am still uncertain is, when one is convinced (Bhavana) that I AM BRAHMAN, the Self, then isn't it a contradiction to practice duality?  Instead of practicing self-attention, Being, and BE what we already ARE... to focus on a localisation in the body? Can the Self be localised, which also implies a form?

It comes down to ... if one is convinced beyond any doubt that he is HE, the SELF and all pervasive, why limit the self with a form and an habitat?  Or, one takes the position of the Sadhaka and practices duality until he is Realised.

I am just expressing my uncertainty here, and I will apreciate your opinion, as always. You do bring out very good points when you mention that without duality there wouldn't be any books etc.
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

nonduel

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Re: Ulladu Narpadu - Anubandam (6)
« Reply #7 on: July 31, 2008, 01:23:06 AM »
Dear Subramanian,

Thank for prayanama.

About the heart on the right side debate, I am still uncertain. The main difficulty, for myself, is that it implies that the Self has a form like an object and resides in a location, the heart cave. The Self is All pervasive, thus how can one "meditate", do Self-Enquiry, while giving a form to the Self. This is duality.

Then, Sri Ramana said to "dive within" which implies an "outside" and is duality. As long as one believes he-is-the-body, there is an inside and an outside. Consequnetly, the "dive within" is for the Sadhaka.

So, it could be both. Hum???

DEAR SIR,

RIGHT LEFT IS NOTHING AFTER REACHING THE SELF, IT IS ALL BEFORE REACHING SELF, AS WE ARE THINKING AS BODY OURSELF WITH ILLUSION OF EGO.

AS A SADHAKA ONE MAY EXPERINCE THE FEELING OF PULSTION ON RIGHT SIDE OF CHEST FOR SOME TIME; THAT IS RIGHT AS I ALSO HAD THAT EXPERIANCE


AS YOU SAY NO LT, RT AFTER DIVING AND IN SELF

A TREE COMES FROM A SEED AND GIVES MANY SEEDS. WHICH COMES FROM WHERE. WHICH COMES FIRST ENQUIRE.
IT IS SIMILAR, THE INFINITE SELF EXIST AS IT IS AND EVERYTHING SPROUTS FROM THAT. BUT WE BE A SEED/SELF INSTEAD OF SPOROUTING FROM THAT WE MUST REMAIN IN SOURCE ONLY.

AM I RIGHT PLS FORGIVE IF WRONG AND CLARIFY

Dear Sankar,

Do not worry about being right or wrong.  I apreciate all your posts. Yes, in the SELF there is nor right and no left.

As for my experience, it is more like a sinking than a pulsation, and it often comes with some sleepiness. Sometimes there is "joy".
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

kde

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Re: Ulladu Narpadu - Anubandam (6)
« Reply #8 on: July 31, 2008, 01:50:38 AM »
Dear Subramanian,

Thank for prayanama.

About the heart on the right side debate, I am still uncertain. The main difficulty, for myself, is that it implies that the Self has a form like an object and resides in a location, the heart cave. The Self is All pervasive, thus how can one "meditate", do Self-Enquiry, while giving a form to the Self. This is duality.

Then, Sri Ramana said to "dive within" which implies an "outside" and is duality. As long as one believes he-is-the-body, there is an inside and an outside. Consequnetly, the "dive within" is for the Sadhaka.

So, it could be both. Hum???

So the heart centre gives form to the self a place to dive into duality? But the heart centre exists within the the self being nothing outside the self so non duality? duality is not from the selfs point of view but from the egos point of view? Is seems like there is no real answer to these questions only to ask who asks.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2008, 01:54:56 AM by kde »

SANKAR

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Re: Ulladu Narpadu - Anubandam (6)
« Reply #9 on: July 31, 2008, 06:05:59 AM »
Dear Subramanian,

Thank for prayanama.

About the heart on the right side debate, I am still uncertain. The main difficulty, for myself, is that it implies that the Self has a form like an object and resides in a location, the heart cave. The Self is All pervasive, thus how can one "meditate", do Self-Enquiry, while giving a form to the Self. This is duality.

Then, Sri Ramana said to "dive within" which implies an "outside" and is duality. As long as one believes he-is-the-body, there is an inside and an outside. Consequnetly, the "dive within" is for the Sadhaka.

So, it could be both. Hum???

DEAR SIR,

RIGHT LEFT IS NOTHING AFTER REACHING THE SELF, IT IS ALL BEFORE REACHING SELF, AS WE ARE THINKING AS BODY OURSELF WITH ILLUSION OF EGO.

AS A SADHAKA ONE MAY EXPERINCE THE FEELING OF PULSTION ON RIGHT SIDE OF CHEST FOR SOME TIME; THAT IS RIGHT AS I ALSO HAD THAT EXPERIANCE


AS YOU SAY NO LT, RT AFTER DIVING AND IN SELF

A TREE COMES FROM A SEED AND GIVES MANY SEEDS. WHICH COMES FROM WHERE. WHICH COMES FIRST ENQUIRE.
IT IS SIMILAR, THE INFINITE SELF EXIST AS IT IS AND EVERYTHING SPROUTS FROM THAT. BUT WE BE A SEED/SELF INSTEAD OF SPOROUTING FROM THAT WE MUST REMAIN IN SOURCE ONLY.

AM I RIGHT PLS FORGIVE IF WRONG AND CLARIFY

Dear Sankar,

Do not worry about being right or wrong.  I apreciate all your posts. Yes, in the SELF there is nor right and no left.

As for my experience, it is more like a sinking than a pulsation, and it often comes with some sleepiness. Sometimes there is "joy".

Yes it is all felt when we are bodily conscious. Finally I get to sleep only and remain for some time lossing everything as in deep sleep.

KANNAN MEERA SANKAR

Subramanian.R

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Re: Ulladu Narpadu - Anubandam (6)
« Reply #10 on: July 31, 2008, 05:54:05 PM »
Dear 'non-duality', You are correct.  All  'bhavanas' imply duality
and it is necessary for the 'sadhaka' at that stage.  Bhagavan gave
the dictum - "I am Brahman" - to Sri Annamalai Swami, for practising
self-enquiry.  Hence, even 'I am Brahman' is for sadhakas and it
impies duality.  Duality ceases to exist, once you are Brahman, or you
are the Self.  Thereafter the bhavana I am Brahman, will gave no meaning
since you are Brahman.

Arunachala Siva. 

nonduel

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Re: Ulladu Narpadu - Anubandam (6)
« Reply #11 on: August 06, 2008, 06:13:24 PM »
Dear All,

Here is a quote from David Godman's blog ( http://sri-ramana-maharshi.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default )  on this subject:

"""The following incident, narrated by Annamalai Swami in Living by the Words of Bhagavan, also has Bhagavan giving out similar advice:


In the beginning, when I first came to Bhagavan, I had asked him for a mantra. In response he told me to repeat ‘Siva Siva’ continuously. Later, Bhagavan advised me to keep my attention in the Heart while I was working. I had read that Bhagavan had spoken of a place called ‘the Heart-centre’, which he located on the right side of the chest. I had assumed that Bhagavan wanted me to concentrate on this particular centre. However, when I started to practise in this way, Bhagavan stopped me and corrected me.

‘This right-side Heart-centre is not the true Heart,’ he said. ‘The real Heart is not located anywhere. It is all-pervasive.’

‘Stop meditating on the Heart-centre,’ he continued. ‘Find the source. That is the true Heart. Just as electricity comes not from the individual meter boxes in people’s houses but from a single source, so too the whole world has a single source, which is the Self or the Heart. Seek and enquire into this source of limitless energy. If the centre of the Self were really located in the body, the Self would die when the body dies.’

I understood from these remarks that just as one cannot experience the nature and source of electricity by staring at the meter box in one’s house, one cannot gain a direct experience of the current of the Self by concentrating on the Heart-centre. I gave up concentrating on this centre and tried to follow Bhagavan’s advice."""

Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

SANKAR

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Re: Ulladu Narpadu - Anubandam (6)
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2008, 04:46:17 AM »
Dear All,

Here is a quote from David Godman's blog ( http://sri-ramana-maharshi.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default )  on this subject:

"""The following incident, narrated by Annamalai Swami in Living by the Words of Bhagavan, also has Bhagavan giving out similar advice:


In the beginning, when I first came to Bhagavan, I had asked him for a mantra. In response he told me to repeat ‘Siva Siva’ continuously. Later, Bhagavan advised me to keep my attention in the Heart while I was working. I had read that Bhagavan had spoken of a place called ‘the Heart-centre’, which he located on the right side of the chest. I had assumed that Bhagavan wanted me to concentrate on this particular centre. However, when I started to practise in this way, Bhagavan stopped me and corrected me.

‘This right-side Heart-centre is not the true Heart,’ he said. ‘The real Heart is not located anywhere. It is all-pervasive.’

‘Stop meditating on the Heart-centre,’ he continued. ‘Find the source. That is the true Heart. Just as electricity comes not from the individual meter boxes in people’s houses but from a single source, so too the whole world has a single source, which is the Self or the Heart. Seek and enquire into this source of limitless energy. If the centre of the Self were really located in the body, the Self would die when the body dies.’

I understood from these remarks that just as one cannot experience the nature and source of electricity by staring at the meter box in one’s house, one cannot gain a direct experience of the current of the Self by concentrating on the Heart-centre. I gave up concentrating on this centre and tried to follow Bhagavan’s advice."""



Dear,

This is how Bhagwan guided his disciple by step by step according to individual mental maturity.

First he advised to repeat so he gets his mind focussed on some words like siva siva.
Then he advised right of heart, when that is complete and needs to go further
Then he advised to find the source as it is pervading all.

THE SOURCE IS NOT OUTSIDE YOU AS WELL NEEDS TO BE UNDERSTOOD.
SOURCE AS OCEAN AND WE ARE A DROP AND WE AS A DROP UNDERSTAND WE CAN SWIM THE WHOLE OCEAN. THIS IS THE PHILOSOPHY AND PRINCIPLE.

SIVA SIVA
KANNAN MEERA SANKAR

Subramanian.R

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Re: Ulladu Narpadu - Anubandam (6)
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2008, 07:39:46 PM »
Dear non duel,  I am happy with your post.  The Heart
and the Heart Centre are much talked about topics,
in David Godman's blog.  The Heart Centre is a location
for the 'sadhakas', the practisers and is localized on
the right side of the chest.  Heart is all pervasive.  Bhagavan
has said this in Ramana Gita (Hrudaya Guhara Madhye...)
and also in Ulladu Narpadu Anubandam.  I told David
that I need a Heart Centre and for that matter, all the
'sadhakas'.  Once one knows Heart, he will not be
interested in the Heart Centre.  Will the sugar
keep a sugar candy in its pocket?

Arunachala Siva.