Author Topic: Learning Scriptures and Atma Jnana  (Read 5507 times)

Subramanian.R

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Learning Scriptures and Atma Jnana
« on: August 20, 2009, 11:47:41 AM »
Bhagavan Ramana has said in Who am I? "Since the Self is
within five sheaths, to attain It from books which are outside
is not possible.  Rama to know that He is Rama does not require
a mirror!"  There is no point in reading scriptures endlessly."

Even reading books is not necessary.  Bhagavan Ramana's life
tells only this.  Because Atma Jnana cannot be captured by mind.
It can be captured only beyond mind.  Not seeing the rope
will never be a problem. Only seeing the rope as a snake is
the problem.  This is ignorance and this ignorance will not
go by merely reading the books.  If one reads the books, he
should see the purport of the book and not its meaning intellectually.

Manikkavachagar completed Tiruvachakam.  He went to Chidambaram Temple to see Nataraja.  The huge gathering headed by the King
asked the saint: "What is the meaning of your book?"  Manikkavachagar said:  "This meaning is only He" and showed
Nataraja and then disappeared as a flame into Nataraja Siva!   

Arunachala Siva.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Learning Scriptures and Atma Jnana
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2009, 12:44:58 PM »
Dear srkudai,

Bhagavan Ramana said:  "Reading the books ENDLESSLY is not
necessary."  (Who am I?).  Very rarely, persons get insights
into the Self without any reading whatsoever. Some reading
is necessary for all others, as a nameboard in the traffic signals.

Arunachala Siva.     

amiatall

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Re: Learning Scriptures and Atma Jnana
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2009, 03:09:06 PM »
it should not become a habit just for the sake of reading, that is all.

If one reads the books, he
should see the purport of the book and not its meaning intellectually.

Please, can you expand on this a little bit? by the word purport what is meant here, is it same as purpose/objective/aim/goal?


Subramanian.R

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Re: Learning Scriptures and Atma Jnana
« Reply #3 on: August 20, 2009, 03:24:28 PM »
Dear amiatall,

Meaning is intellectual understanding.  The purport is the message.
Today I wrote about Saint Manikkavachagar, who merged with Siva
in Chidambaram, when he was 32.  He had written Tiruvachakam
and Tiru Chitrambala Kovai, two works running to about 950
verses. The story goes that he did not want to write them at all.
Siva came to him in the guise of an old brahmin and wanted him
to recite the whole thing during a night.  The saint was in total
bliss of Siva and he repeated everything once again.  The brahmin
quietly wrote them and placed in the inner sanctorum of Nataraja
Temple in Chidambaram at night.  The priests came next morning
and found the palmyra leaves.  There, it was written at the end:
"As saint Manikkavachagar said, Tiru Chitrambalam Udaiyan,
the Lord of the Hall of Consciousness, wrote these!"  The priests
were horripilated.  They went and told the King.  The King was
equally astonished and got them inscribed on gold plates.  He
simultaneously sent word to search the devotee, i.e. the saint.
They found him, garlanded him, and then asked him to come
to the Temple.  The saint came and stood as a melting wax before
Siva.  The king then said:  Sir, Please tell us the meaning of these
poems.  The saint replied:  Meaning?  You want meaning.  The
meaning of these poems is He!  He merged as a flame with Siva
instantly.

The meaning is intellectual understanding, word by word.  The
purport is the message.  All poems are aimed only at attaining Sivahood - not for understanding by buddhi.

This is the message of Tiruvachakam.

Once Tyagraja Chettiar, a learned scholar in Tamil and a great
devotee of Siva was going for bath in river Kaveri.  One man
came to him and asked him:  Sir please tell the meaning of
Tiruvachakam.  The Chettiar replied:  You want meaning?
Instead, you can ask me to drown into Kaveri river.

There are such scriptures.  Everyday it gives new insights,
all meant, to speed up your voyage to Godhead. No commentary
or meaning is possible.

Sad Darsanam of Bhagavan Ramana is one such scripture.

Arunachala Siva.   
 

nonduel

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Re: Learning Scriptures and Atma Jnana
« Reply #4 on: August 20, 2009, 05:44:33 PM »
Dear Subramanian,

"Rama to know that He is Rama does not require a mirror".

Faith in the words of Baghavan Ramana does not require any "doing" but Bhavana, acceptance. From there on one surrender because what can one need to do, to BE what HE IS (the mirror).

Same with reading book, doing japas etc.

Otherwise one is "doing" to attain and that can only be the mind.

Once the rope is seen as the rope, what else is there to do to keep seing it as a rope?

My humble understanding is that one has only to BE. That is to abide in the self.

Untill one has Self-realised (Sahaja) reading books helps to keep the mind focused. And even then, reading is happening by itself! I am probably not clearly explaining my point here, but basicaly what I am saying is that there is no "do-er" and "doing".

Dear Srkudai,

To say that reading books is a necessity means that there is something to do. Only the mind acquires from reading. SELF doesn't need to read.

Being is abiding in what I AM.

Love




Bhagavan Ramana has said in Who am I? "Since the Self is
within five sheaths, to attain It from books which are outside
is not possible.  Rama to know that He is Rama does not require
a mirror!"  There is no point in reading scriptures endlessly."

Even reading books is not necessary.  Bhagavan Ramana's life
tells only this.  Because Atma Jnana cannot be captured by mind.
It can be captured only beyond mind.  Not seeing the rope
will never be a problem. Only seeing the rope as a snake is
the problem.  This is ignorance and this ignorance will not
go by merely reading the books.  If one reads the books, he
should see the purport of the book and not its meaning intellectually.

Manikkavachagar completed Tiruvachakam.  He went to Chidambaram Temple to see Nataraja.  The huge gathering headed by the King
asked the saint: "What is the meaning of your book?"  Manikkavachagar said:  "This meaning is only He" and showed
Nataraja and then disappeared as a flame into Nataraja Siva!   

Arunachala Siva.
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Learning Scriptures and Atma Jnana
« Reply #5 on: August 20, 2009, 06:47:14 PM »
Dear nonduel,

Yes.  Very much.  Surrender with conviction or sarangati with
bhavana, faith is the key.  Bhagavan Ramana told only two
ways.  Atma Vichara, enquiring within, or Surrender, with the
conviction, that nothing is possible by me, only your grace is essential.

Bhagavan Ramana told this to Devaraja Mudaliar who had
complained about his incapabiltiy to do Atma Vichara. 
"Please surrender and leave the rest to me."  But this surrender
totally is also equally difficult.  We are all experts in partial
surrenders.  Give me 10,000 dollars, I shall burn a candle in
the church!  If dollars do not come, no candle is taken to the
church.

This bhakti, whose final form is surrender is an exemplary thing.
Manikkavachagar says in Tiruvachakam:

"Bhakti valaiyil paduvon kanga."  See, he is caught in
my net of bhakti!

He also says:  "Kalivi ennum pal kadal pizhaithuym.."  Escaping
the ocean of knowledge!

Measured reading of scriptures and  total surrender are the
two essential requisites. 

Atma Vichara and Surrender are two sides of the same coin!

Arunachala Siva.   

nonduel

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Re: Learning Scriptures and Atma Jnana
« Reply #6 on: August 20, 2009, 08:51:40 PM »
Dear Subramanian and Srkudai,

This is a very difficult subject to discuss with words, as you know.

My dear Subramanian, it is the choice of words. Saying that surrender is difficult adds to the difficulty. Because by saying it is difficult, one is also recognizing "I am the body" (mind...) and it is difficult for "me".

If you have total faith in the words of Baghavan Ramana, then there cannot be difficulties. "Please surrender and leave the rest to me"

The mind is sneaky and will often surge with thoughts of difficulties. Why should I worry, My beloved Guru Bhagavan is in charge, I AM IN HIS HANDS. Just relax, just BE, abide in the self with absolute assurance, faith,..bhavana. Nothing is difficult for Bhagavan.

Reading the scriptures, books. I am not implying that one should not. It is the attitude, why one is doing it.

My dear Srkudai..."the Self does not need realisation either" Yes!

Love
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

nonduel

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Re: Learning Scriptures and Atma Jnana
« Reply #7 on: August 20, 2009, 08:58:09 PM »
My Dear Subramanian,

""We are all experts in partial surrenders.  Give me 10,000 dollars, I shall burn a candle in the church!  If dollars do not come, no candle is taken to the church.""

My Dear Subramanian, you ARE HE!  It is the ego, the individual that will burn the candle... You are not that individual. All that is happening by itself through the gunas.

Love
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Learning Scriptures and Atma Jnana
« Reply #8 on: August 21, 2009, 10:46:45 AM »
Dear srkudai and nonduel,

Yes.  Words cannot express that state and that state can be
attained either by reading everything or not reading at all.
It all depends on one's prarabdha.  Surrender is difficult in
the sense that it implies ego-destruction, and that ego renders
its own destruction difficult.  For both Atma Vichara and Sarangati,
ego-destruction is a must.  This is the major hurdle.

When Sivaprakasam Pillai asked Bhagavan Ramana:  Who is the
greatest among devotees, bhaktas?  Bhagavan Ramana replies:
One who gives himself up to God and be an Atma Nishtapara is
the greatest devotee,bhakta.  This "giving oneself up" means
only annihilation of the ego.

Arunachala Siva. 
 

Roshan

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Re: Learning Scriptures and Atma Jnana
« Reply #9 on: August 21, 2009, 02:40:28 PM »
Dear Srkudai
    What is Mithya? Also could you please comprehend the 4 qualities from the yoga Vasistham ???

matthias

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Re: Learning Scriptures and Atma Jnana
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2009, 04:21:28 PM »
I would like to share someting from my buddhist studies....

there the spiritual life is seen as a bird with two wings...

one wing is scriptual knowledge, and the correct understanding of this on a mental level....this is neccessary to have the exact roadmap to enlightment...

(there is of course also a saying, if you have the road map why you constantly triing to jump of the cliffs??)

second wing is meditation...or transforming scriptural knowledge into direct expereince...

so both is equally important....

yet both are not neccessary at all, there are many cases of direct realisation without meditaiton or reading + meditation or whatever....

so anyway everyone has his or her understanding, and his or her sadhana here....and this is the perfect expression of the one self...

much love
matthias


amiatall

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Re: Learning Scriptures and Atma Jnana
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2009, 07:19:23 PM »
it was expressed clearly in some books, that such rare cases of direct realisation without any practice is because an individual has already done it in previous lifes.

matthias

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Re: Learning Scriptures and Atma Jnana
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2009, 11:51:09 AM »
dear amiatall

yes indeed you are right, also ramana said that about his case  ;)

much love
mattias