Author Topic: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana  (Read 13367 times)

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47994
    • View Profile
Re: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana
« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2009, 07:34:42 PM »
Dear srkudai,

Descent is not the descent from the Self.  When once Self is
realized, how can a person come down from that state?  This
descent, is from the point of seekers, who are serious about
the atma-jnana.  Saiva Siddhantam calls it Suddha Manas, the
state of pure mind, which is not the mind in our sense of understanding.  That is why it is called, Sakti Lasyam.  The dance
of Consciousness, even though Consciousness in the truest sense
is again non-moving, and not dancing.  This descent and dance
is all for the sincere seekers.  That is the state in which the Buddha,
Christ, Sankara and Bhagavan Ramana gave their teachings.  This
is purely spiritual and not amenable to intellectual understanding.
Is it not?  This is the power with which Jesus Christ split the Red
Sea and walked in between.  Splitting the sea and making a clear
path in between, not a bridge or underpass, is spiritual power
and is not a descent in the sense we understand.

Arunachala Siva.   
 

amiatall

  • Guest
Re: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana
« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2009, 07:41:15 PM »
intellectual understanding is:
You are GOD. God is such and such, all and nothing, and etc. One meditates that he is God which is the supreme and etc.
So having this knowledge of Who and What, does one recognize Self immediately?

If I say you are THAT. Do you immediately recognize that you are THAT?
Or should you go into 'I AM WHAT?' direction?
Even very strong mind, when said "YOU ARE THAT", suddenly recognizes itSelf by subtle "I AM WHAT?", then mind sinks into itself.
don't know if i am conveying what i want you to hear, because english is cloudy a bit for me.


nonduel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 292
    • View Profile
Re: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana
« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2009, 08:34:10 PM »
Dear Subramanian,

Quote:
"You need not either cling to the mind too much nor ignore
it too much.  You just allow it to play its game but do some scene of controlling it.  This "acting" is moderation.  This moderation is also true for reading scriptures.  This moderation is also true for eating food.  Moderation in anything and everything!"


The teaching of Baghavan is only to abide in the self, utterly convinced that I am not the body and utterly convinced that I AM THE SELF. Consequently when thoughts surge hinting that reading will help, that I need to "do" this or that, that it is difficult, that I don't have such an experience etc....etc.

I will enquire: "Who needs to do this? Who has difficulties?". Because reacting and acting on those thoughts comfirms that one is the body, the mind.

All the questions are from the mind and acting on them is stopping to abide in the self. This is where surrender enters. To surrender is to return to vichara. Abiding in the self, even clumsily, erratically, at ramdom during the day is to surrender. By "returning within", in the self, is to surrender.

Having said this, it doesn't mean that thoughts will cease to surge, that one doesn't read, that one doesn't eat (LOL!) etc. As you pointed out, this will cease at the destruction of the ego, the mind, SAHAJA! But when I have a thought that I "need/should do this or that" I return within (vichara). Thus to me, it isn't a question of moderation or reading endlessly, but to:  "You just allow it to play its game"
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47994
    • View Profile
Re: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana
« Reply #18 on: August 26, 2009, 10:52:09 AM »
Dear nonduel,

I agree with you.  Reading measure-fully is only to understand
the way.  That is all.  It is like a sign-post on the traffic junction.
Reaching the way should with our own efforts.  The sign post will
not take us.  That is why Upanishads are said to go and come back,
failing in its words to attain Brahman. As you rightly pointed out,
after attaining that Sahaja state, if one reads, he reads from within
the Self.

Arunachala Siva.   

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47994
    • View Profile
Re: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana
« Reply #19 on: August 26, 2009, 10:59:32 AM »
Dear amiatall,

To meditate intensely that I am God, is dhyana.  Bhagavan Ramana
explains this in Who am I?  He says:  Dhyanam is to contemplate
that one is Brahman and Sat Chit Anandam.  This is also called
Aham Brahmasmi in Upanishad.  I am Brahman.  Bhagavan further
explains what is Vichara.  Vichara is to keep the mind with That.
Both are explained in Who am I? - under answer to Question No.
27.  This is Tat Tvam Asi - I am That of the Upanishad.

Intense devotion takes one to self realization.  Sincere dhyanam
takes one to Atma Jnana through Vichara.

Arunachala Siva.   

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47994
    • View Profile
Re: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana
« Reply #20 on: August 26, 2009, 11:33:59 AM »
Dear srkudai,

I now fully agree with you.  The State is permanent.  The brahmajnani
in that state can do anything.  He can even marry as done by Kadueli
Siddhar.  His descent, as I meant, is only from the point of view
of onlookers.  Avataram means only descending.  The Jnanis who
are considered Avataras, appearing to be descending, is only for
our welfare and salvation.  Once having recognized the Self by
totally abhorring the ego, there is nothing more to abhor. They
can teach, rule kingdom etc., When Sri Krishna taught Srimad
Bhagavad Gita, neither he nor Arjuna were sannyasis.  Krishna
descended from his State for the sake of Arjuna's seeking and
understanding.

Arunachala Siva.

matthias

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 393
    • View Profile
Re: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana
« Reply #21 on: August 26, 2009, 01:42:59 PM »
ok amiatall :)

I cannot tell if in this forum someone is self realized, but I was thought that I should see everyone in a spiritual community as the buddha....and I recieved many important teachings from people that are not formally "realized-beeings"....

anyway I will go make some formal meditation


 

amiatall

  • Guest
Re: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana
« Reply #22 on: August 26, 2009, 01:51:37 PM »
Dear amiatall,

To meditate intensely that I am God, is dhyana.  Bhagavan Ramana
explains this in Who am I?  He says:  Dhyanam is to contemplate
that one is Brahman and Sat Chit Anandam.  This is also called
Aham Brahmasmi in Upanishad.  I am Brahman.  Bhagavan further
explains what is Vichara.  Vichara is to keep the mind with That.
Both are explained in Who am I? - under answer to Question No.
27.  This is Tat Tvam Asi - I am That of the Upanishad.

Intense devotion takes one to self realization.  Sincere dhyanam
takes one to Atma Jnana through Vichara.

Arunachala Siva.    

Yes. This is so. But I Am That must have a direction. Isn't you curious when I say You Are That, to ask I Am What? If such question does not arise then:
"Sri Ramana
says that this is due to absence or lack of uran or mental strength."

"...we will not
feel any need or desire to meditate ‘I am that’, but will instead feel
only a strong urge and love to scrutinise ourself in order to discover
‘I am what?’..."

"When the Vedas [or other sacred texts] proclaim ‘that is you’, our thinking ‘I am that [absolute reality], [and]
not this [body or mind]’ [and] not [just] being [that absolute
reality by] examining ourself [to ascertain] ‘what [am I]?’ is
due to lack of mental strength [or discrimination], because that
[absolute reality] always abides as ourself."


matthias

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 393
    • View Profile
Re: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana
« Reply #23 on: August 26, 2009, 01:52:34 PM »
dear Skrudai

you wrote:

2. you have agreed that the Realized person himself doesnot change states. In that cases, the ignorant person does not understand his State ... so whether a Realized person involves in activities or remains motionless... it does not matter.
infact, after realization, the body & mind are supported by prarabdha ... when prarabdha exhausts itself, they drop away ... whether or not the body and mind drop ... the "I" is ever merged in the Complete... so Jnani no more identifies with states of body / mind.


I think that the nature of mind (self) is not limited by anything, so it is at the same time totally still and moving...so thoughts are coming and going, are totally swallowed in extasy, run arround like a monkey etc...

the presence is always there..it does not even matter if I realize it or not, it matters for me of course but notfor the nature of mind..

you see there is this very interessting story about the begger having this piece of dirt as his pillow, he is starving and has no home...until one day he sees something shining inside this piece of dirt...and starts to clean it with water..and then he has this wonderfull diamond in his hands...

I belive you understand the analogy....

the question now is: "who is the richer person? the begger before he found the diamond, or the begger after finding it?"

I think a very interessting question

amiatall

  • Guest
Re: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana
« Reply #24 on: August 26, 2009, 01:54:45 PM »
ok amiatall :)

I cannot tell if in this forum someone is self realized, but I was thought that I should see everyone in a spiritual community as the buddha....and I recieved many important teachings from people that are not formally "realized-beeings"....

anyway I will go make some formal meditation

 :)
well,to my mind good practice is to see everything and everyone as "the buddha", not only a person but everything no matter what comes.

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47994
    • View Profile
Re: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana
« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2009, 02:35:55 PM »
Dear matthias and amiatall,

Interesting observations! And I am very happy.

Dear amiatall,

When you ask:  I am what?  Then this question gives many many
answers.  All of them are wrong.  Intense meditation, will one
day, give you no answer.  This answer-less state is That!  Aham
Brahmasmi leads to Tat Tvam Asi.

Dear matthias,

Yes. In Periya Puranam, the story of Siva saints gives exactly the
same observation.  A Siva devotee is truly Siva himself.  There
were devotees who prayed only to Siva devotees.  Eg. Appoothi
Adigal.  He has not even seen Tiru Navukkarasar.  But he knew
his greatness from others and started praying to him.  It is like
praying to formless Brahman.  Total advaitam!  He was a rich
person.  He built food distribution centres, water distribution
sheds for animals and men, even named his sons as Tiru
Navukkarasar the first, Tiru Navukkarasar, the second etc.,  Like
Henry the V and Henry VI.  One day Tiru Navukkarasar came to that
village called Thingaloor.  The devotee became speechless on seeing
him!  He attained salvation without even praying to Siva!  Such is
the greatness of Siva devotees.

I see matthias as Buddha, the greatest amongst bipeds.  I see
paul as Christ, the son of God.  I see srkudai, as Bhagavan Ramana
Himself.  And that is the bhavana, conviction coupled with devotion
with which I see this Forum.  

Sankara says in one of his verses.  My Guru told me to meditate,
I am Siva, Sivoham, Sivoham!  I don't care a bit, whether this
will make me abide in Siva.  But I trust my Guru's upadesa, teaching
and that is enough for me!

Arunachala Siva.  

amiatall

  • Guest
Re: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana
« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2009, 04:08:27 PM »
Yes it may give one many answers. But to the more subtle mind when you ask: I am What? to the statement 'You are THAT' - no questions arise, because ones full attention goes inward to find 'what is THAT'. So as we see this self-attention pointing to itself is vichara, while purely 'I am THAT' without asking 'i am what?' is meditation. My point here is to clarify for myself and for those who need that meditation never can be a direct path, because one dwells on something other than 'I am'. And 'I am something' is only an aid which sooner or later will ready one to do vichara. For a very strong mind saying "You are THAT" automatically does vichara, and for a weak mind it is only a meditation on an object. Thus it is profound saying that can be grasped very differently depending on the practicioners mind strength. Furthermore if one is convinced 'I am That' so one does not need to meditate upon that, because we don't meditate "I am Man", one should arise a love within oneself to scrutinize ones being to the depths. That is the teachings of Ramana - to be self-attentive instead of meditating on something.

peace

 

nonduel

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 292
    • View Profile
Re: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana
« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2009, 05:50:06 PM »
Dear everyone,

The teaching has rarely been so well explained as in this thread. The posts are inspiring. Truly Baghavan writes beautifully! 

Love to all of you
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

matthias

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 393
    • View Profile
Re: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana
« Reply #28 on: August 27, 2009, 09:12:13 PM »
dear skrudai you wrote


motion means change. Change means time. And time means limitation.
So mind which is changing is bound to be dead. That is mithya. by nature it dies.


this is true indeed, thinking mind is not endless, but it is also not different from buddha nature or the "self"...

in fact the changing, moving or thinking mind is nothing else then the "self" and therefor it is totally perfect in showing that the "self" is not limited in any case, also not when it shows itself as thoughts..

















Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47994
    • View Profile
Re: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2009, 11:34:18 AM »
Dear matthias,

Yes. Thinking mind creates problems on account of swarming
thoughts.  The Self enquiry needs only attention, Sraddha to
pursue the Self realization, through Guru's grace.

Arunachala Siva.