Author Topic: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana  (Read 13351 times)

Subramanian.R

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Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana
« on: August 20, 2009, 11:37:34 AM »
Mind and ego help us to acquire scriptural knowledge.  That is all.
We have to open our mind-free Heart to attain Self realization.
Our mind, intellect and ego are in no way concerned with that
Self realization. 

Once Nochur Venkataraman was addressing a gathering in
Palakkad.  There were some young children, who had been
brought by their father or mother, because there was no one
to baby-sit at home.  One child looked at Nochur and then went
to some state of semi-sleep.  His mind is gone, his buddhi is gone.
There was no ego, of course.  His parents were listening to the
discourse in all earnestness.

Next day, it so happened that the mother of that child got  angry
and scolded the child.  The child looked up at his mother and said:
"Amma!  Please see from where, your anger sprouts and causes
havoc.?"

The mother became speechless.  It was exactly what Nochur
had told the gathering in the previous evening!  The child had
understood this in his semi-sleep state more clearly than the
mother!  She rushed to Nochur and told him about this:  Nochur
smilingly told the mother: "Do not worry, it is the Heart that should
be open to get the insights of my teaching.  The child had done exactly that!"

Arunachala Siva. 

Subramanian.R

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Re: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana
« Reply #1 on: August 20, 2009, 12:41:37 PM »
Dear srkudai,

Yes. Very much. For most of us it is required, because we
always prefer roundabout routes.  For persons who are gifted
they are not necessary.  Kavyakanta Ganapati went through
the roundabout routes.  Bhagavan Ramana reached It by
royal route.  So also Sadasiva Brahmendra and others.

Arunachala Siva.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana
« Reply #2 on: August 20, 2009, 12:49:35 PM »
Dear srkudai,

Bhagavan Ramana says, vide Talks, "I have gone through a
Periya Puranam and Tayumanavar a little bit.  Bible lessons
were there in the school....."  If this alone could do for me,
then I will be very fortunate.  Is it not?

Perhaps, if you want to still know the direct route, then
Saint Tiru Jnana Sambandhar (the first among 63 saints)
composed poems at the age of 3!  What did he read?
It was an age when proper alphabets are not learnt.

Arunachala Siva.     

paul

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Re: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana
« Reply #3 on: August 21, 2009, 03:11:01 AM »
While out walking with our dog I attempt to practice Self enquiry, occasionally just for a few seconds there is an experience there where no thoughts are present. It might be better described as nothing. Very shortly after that, thoughts reappear and I drags itslef back to (un)-reality because it doesn't want to let go.  My point is during that very instant of an experience all I have read about Self-enquiry is non-existent. However by reading we are given guidance on how to practise and reading, writing and thinking about Self enquiry does help to keep the motivation going.

Paul.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana
« Reply #4 on: August 21, 2009, 10:39:16 AM »
Dear Paul,

Yes.  At the time of Experience, there is no need to remember
anything that one has read. Because, the Experience, the Self
is beyond both ignorance and knowledge.  This is precisely
what Bhagavan Ramana says in Verse 13 of Sad Darsanam and
in Verse 27 of Upadesa Saram.  Only when one slips back, then
reading and remembering becomes necessary.  When one abides
permanently in that exalted experience, no reading is necessary.

Bhagavan Ramana also says in Who am I?:  "One has to forget
all that one had learnt."  This is also the same thing.

Arunachala Siva.

matthias

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Re: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2009, 04:06:48 PM »
I dont understand why an exalted experience is neccessary? or thought free state is better then thinking mind?

the thought free expereince of pure space and awereness is important to realize that also there is the simple presence...

it has no other meaning!!

a seeker asked bhagawan the following:

"when i practice self enquiery I reached a thoughtfree state, a nothingness...is that it?"

and ramana simply said "Who expereinces this nothingness?"

so infact to alter the experience is not forbidden but also not an aid to realisation

reading the scriptures is not an aid and also it is not a failure...the self is not limited to anything...so one may read scriptures or not...one may stop reading srcitpures because some little voice in the head told so, one may read even more scriptures because a littel voice in the head told so...one may go beyond both ways

the presence is always the same...and it is effortlessly realized...no one does awereness...awereness simply is..if we taste this we are touched be grace, no effort on our side made this possible...

much love
matthias

amiatall

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Re: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2009, 07:17:26 PM »
so, you don't understand how thought free state is better, but you say yourself why it is better:
the thought free expereince of pure space and awereness is important to realize that also there is the simple presence...

I dont understand why an exalted experience is neccessary? or thought free state is better then thinking mind?

to even try to equal thought free state vs thinking mind is ridiculous.

"Thinking that we are God or the absolute reality is beneficial only
insofar as it can help us to convince and remind ourself that we
should not rise as this thinking mind but should instead abide as our
own real self, which is that absolute reality, whose nature is just
being and not doing or thinking anything...."

"Therefore, since we are in truth always only that absolute reality,
our aim should be to experience ourself as such, and in order to
experience ourself thus, we must subside in our being, remaining
without rising to think anything.Therefore in verse 27 of Ulladu
Narpadu Sri Ramana says:
The state of [just] being, in which ‘I’ [this mind] does not rise
[as a seemingly separate entity], is the state in which we are
that. Without scrutinising the place [abode or source] where ‘I’
rises, how [is it possible for us] to reach the loss of [our
individual] self, [which is the egoless state] in which ‘I’ does
not rise? Without reaching [this state of egolessness or
annihilation of our individuality], say, how [can we remain]
abiding in the state of [our own real] self, in which [we
experience ourself as] ‘myself is that’?"
(THE PRACTICE OF THE ART OF BEING)

And I don't agree totally that such experience is NOT AN AID TO realization.
to my understanding Anything, which makes your mind one pointed is of GREAT VALUE on the path to self-realization.





« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 11:16:13 PM by amiatall »

nonduel

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Re: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana
« Reply #7 on: August 25, 2009, 01:28:17 AM »
Dear Self  ;)

I smiled when I read this thread.

Because there will always be two sides to the teaching, this is duality. If one takes the stance that everything is the SELF, then there is nothing to do, no scriptures to read, no experiences needed to be the SELF. I AM THAT I AM!

But everytime I consider the teaching as "nonduel" it is inevitable that the opposite can always be brought forward. Words are concepts and many interpretations can sprout and animate a discussion.

This forum is a very special gathering. There are many different opinions, understanding, discussions and very, very seldom are they tinted with agressivity. Earnest and honest Sadhakas.

My personal understanding is that the sadhana of Self-Enquiry as taught by Sri Ramana is to abide in the self. It is the mind that complicates things and this breaks self-attention. All the opinions contrary to this are as valid is mine. There is no debate with a winner and/or loser here.

Love to All!
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana
« Reply #8 on: August 25, 2009, 11:13:19 AM »
Dear nonduel and srkudai,

Yes.  It is the mind which creates duality.  There may be two
different Jnanis, one who has never read anything or one who
has read many things.  At the end of the day, both had attained
Jnana.  It is the mind which binds and not the reading per se.
Bhagavan Ramana did not read anything worth but He had to read
many things after Self realization, for the sake of others.  So
He clearly said in  Who am I?  -  There is no use in reading measure-
lessly.  One has to unlearn or forget, at some point of time,  all that
one has learnt.  He made this 'concession' since He was sure that everyone would not be like Him.  It is the mind which creates 'bondage' that has to be controlled on ideas, concepts, philosophies etc.,

There was a washer-man.  He had three donkeys.  Once while
driving them, He had urgent nature call to clear.  He looked up
for ropes to tie the donkeys and go for some time.  But he had
only ropes that were adequate for only two donkeys.  He was
thinking.  He saw a Jnani sitting near the tree.  He asked him.
The Jnani said: Tie the two donkeys.  And for the third one,
you just go behind its hind-legs and make a scene that you are
tying it.  I shall take care of all the three.  The washer-man did
that and went away and came after some time.  He had thought
that Jnani had chanted some mantras to keep the third one safe.
He started untying the donkeys.  The first two were untied and
and they started moving.  The third one, though never untied
did not move!  He looked at the Jnani.  He thought that the Jnani
had bound that donkey with some mantras.  He told him to do something.  The Jnani said:  I did not do anything.  You do one
thing.  You go behind its hind-legs and make a scene that you
are untying the donkey.  He did that.  And the donkey moved!

The first two are world and god.  You can either ignore them or
cling to them.  They will act as your wish.  The third one is
your mind, the Jiva.  This jiva-donkey is mano-bhava.  It is all
thoughts.  There is no tying at all.  But still it acts as if it is
tied.  You need not either cling to the mind too much nor ignore
it too much.  You just allow it to play its game but do some scene of controlling it.  This "acting" is moderation. 

This moderation is also true for reading scriptures.  This moderation is also true for eating food.  Moderation in anything and everything!

Arunachala Siva.           

matthias

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Re: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2009, 11:31:39 AM »
dear amiatall

you are right indeed. I will not go deeper in this conversation and try to strenghten whatever meaning I presented, as I know from my limited experience that this will create alot of mindstuff for both of us..

I hope this is ok

much love
matthias

Subramanian.R

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Re: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana
« Reply #10 on: August 25, 2009, 11:52:24 AM »
Dear matthias,

Yes.  I agree.  In this connection, we have to remember the
Brahmastra, the Weapon of Brahma, the most potent, weapon
of Bhagavan Ramana:

Suppose some one asks:  How this mind free experience can be brought out in description?  Bhagavan will say: "Who is asking
the question?"  (Is it not you, your mind, your ego?)

But the fact remains that such glimpses of the Self, should be
brought out for the benefit of others, if at all they are eager
to be benefited.  When the abidance in the Self is total and
permanent, such abidance will not be brought out by the
experiencer.  Thereafter, there will be no Forum posts by him!
The purpose of the Forum is only to make everyone attain that
permanently abiding experience, and stop posting any further!

Arunachala Siva.     

matthias

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Re: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana
« Reply #11 on: August 25, 2009, 12:04:46 PM »
thats true.

anyway this morning I dont feel like making my "understanding" something important and menaingfull and whatever....

it is just playing with meanings and I did this in this forum very very often, so today I had no coffee, and thats why I simply will not win  :D

Subramanian.R

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Re: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana
« Reply #12 on: August 25, 2009, 12:22:05 PM »
Dear matthias,

Okay.  Have your coffee and with some beacons if necessary
and stay still and meditate on that great person, "dvipadam
paramam", the best "among the bipeds", (as Guadapada puts
it) the Buddha!

Arunachala Siva.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2009, 05:31:16 PM »
Dear srkudai,

Brahma Jnanis abide in the Self for ever.  Sometimes, they "descend
to a few steps down"  - This is called Sakti Lasyam.  The Dance of
Divine Power, in case genuine seekers come to that Brahma Jnani
for advices, his teaching in words and books.  This is how Sankara
composed all his songs and atma jnana kranthas like Viveka
Choodamani, Atma Bodham, and Dasa Sloki.  Dasa Sloki was his
last teaching in 10 verses, before he attained the Sarvajna Peetam
or leaving the mortal coil.  Bhagavan Ramana also did the same
thing.  He did not go out to teach in street corners, like some Bendecoste missionaries.  He stayed put in Arunachaleswara Temple, Iluppai Tree, Mango Tree Cave and other places for about 2 years.  Then He went to Virupaksha Cave where He had stayed for 16 years.
Here is where devotees started coming.  These devotees also were
driven by some inner urge.  Humphreys was the first Westerner
like that.  Then came Paul Brunton and others.  Uddandi Nayanar
and Kunju Swami and Dandayudapani Swami  (Muruganar's
father in law) also came like that only.  This Sakti Lasyam, out of
abundant grace started helping them!

Abiding in the Self is Brahma Jnana Sthithi.
Descending to help others, is a Brahma Jnana Vaibhavam.

"Sri Ramakrishna once was in Savikalpa Samadhi.  He told one devotee: Listen to what I tell you NOW, I have descended to tell That to you.  I may not tell That always."  Bhagavan Ramana was ever in
deep silence, abidance in Self.  Suddenly He would turn His eyes towards a devotee and start telling something or answering question.  The Silence was so profound that one Western devotee remarked:  It is so solid that one can cut it with a knife.  Between these silences, He descended and gave His teachings.  His Silence is the Self and His teachings are the Sakti Lasyam.  Paul Brunton had said:  "He is
such a deep person and I can never talk to Him in equal terms,
(inspite of all my erudition....)  but if He chose "to descend"  I can be free with Him like a child!"             

Arunachala Siva.

amiatall

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Re: Heart alone is necessary for Atma Jnana
« Reply #14 on: August 25, 2009, 07:11:08 PM »
Dear matthias,

Yes.  I agree.  In this connection, we have to remember the
Brahmastra, the Weapon of Brahma, the most potent, weapon
of Bhagavan Ramana:

Suppose some one asks:  How this mind free experience can be brought out in description?  Bhagavan will say: "Who is asking
the question?"  (Is it not you, your mind, your ego?)

But the fact remains that such glimpses of the Self, should be
brought out for the benefit of others, if at all they are eager
to be benefited.  When the abidance in the Self is total and
permanent, such abidance will not be brought out by the
experiencer.  Thereafter, there will be no Forum posts by him!
The purpose of the Forum is only to make everyone attain that
permanently abiding experience, and stop posting any further!

Arunachala Siva.     

That was my point.
My main point is: ones can't delude oneselfs that ones are realized by merely knowing intellectualy :(
sorry matthias for i misunderstood you.

peace