Author Topic: If this life itself is a dream then does Ramana exist only in that dream?  (Read 4956 times)

none

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Ramana says “Waking is long and a dream short; other than this there is no difference. Just as waking happenings seem real while awake, so do those in a dream while dreaming."

My question is if this life itself is a dream then

1) Does even Ramana or for that matter whoever is replying to this question exist only in my dream?

2) Does it mean I'm (self) all alone and everything else including all people and things is fictitious?

3) So the teachings provided by Ramana and other gurus are happening in my dream only?

4) How can I believe that the teachings by Ramana and other masters as true. You may say that I need to do a self-inquiry and find the truth myself. That means I have to start with an assumption that I will know the truth by self-inquiry. In believing this assumption to be true what if I wasted all my time (if time exists!) in doing the self-inquiry and then find out that everything (enlightenment, self-realization, becoming one with everything etc) is false!

I have gone through most of the messages in this forum but I couldn't find the right answer. So please give me something different than what has been said in this forum.  I have read a lot about Ramana's teachings, so please don't tell me what Ramana has said on dream or the three states. Please give me straight and simple answers. Will be grateful if anyone could help.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2009, 05:05:30 AM by none »

Subramanian.R

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Dear None,

There is an elephant in the forest.  The elephant is scared about
the Lion in the forest.  The Lion has not appeared before the elephant
in recent times.  It was once sighted and the elephant became totally
afraid of lion.  One night, the elephant dreamt of the Lion, it got
scared even its dream about the Lion.  It woke up with a huge
cry.  There was not Lion.  Only it was there.  The elephant got
self realized.

All are dreams.  But unlike the elephant's dream, our dream about
Bhagavan Ramana is a pleasant dream.  But this dream should
also end one day, when you would really wake up.  That waking
is the realization. 

Arunachala Siva.   

paul

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Here is something that helped me to understand 'Waking is long and a dream is short' :

It is taken from The Path of Sri Ramana (Part Two) by Sri Sadhu Om.

An extract from Chapter 1. The World and God. Pages 14 and 15.

It is only after the first person feeling ‘I am a man’ has risen from sleep, that the world which is seen in front of us appears. The mind or man who sees this world then feels impelled to infer and accept the existence of an almighty God who is able to create this world, which is seen so vast and multivarious. That is, in the waking state, after the rising of the first person feeling ‘I am so and so’, which did not exist in sleep, everyone has to accept the existence of the other two entities, the world and God, which are second and third persons. The world and God are non-existent only when the first person feeling ‘I am a man’ is non – existent, that is ,in sleep and in the truly awakened state of Self knowledge. At such times no necessity arises to accept the world and God. This is a fact we can clearly understand from the following teachings of Sri Bhagavan:

...After an ‘I’ rises, everything rises…
Ulladu Narpadu verse 23


_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
It helped me to understand from the moment this first person (I) or ego rises it creates through thought, the world(second person) and God (third person). It is all in the mind. That is the case in the waking state.

In the dream state the ego creates another world.

Hence ‘Waking is long and a dream is short.’

Bhagavan and others are telling us how to get out of this state



none

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Thank you all for the replies.

So the answer seems to be "yes" to my first three questions! What a paradox is lfe then! My mind (what else!) is finding it dfficult to accept this.


Subramanian.R

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Dear none,

Bhagavan Ramana says in Who am I?:  There is no difference
between dream and waking up, excepting the former is short
and the latter is long.

We are living in a long dream.  Lion was sighted once.  That is,
we came from the Brahman, as the game started.  It is however,
a pleasant dream.  When we wake up we are Brahman again.

This waking up need not be only when one leaves the body.
For most of the enquirers it is afer leaving the body.  But
people like Sankara, Saint Manikkavachagar and Bhagavan
Ramana, the waking up took place while in dream itself!  However,
they continued in the dream life for some years in full waking
state.  This is Sahaja Samadhi.  Waking up after the body is
discarded is Nirvikalpa Samadhi.  Waking up, again getting into
dream and again waking up, this game is Savikalpa Samadhi.
If this paragraph is a little tough, please ignore, because all
these 'waking state definitions' are not for the present.

Arunachala Siva.     

Subramanian.R

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Dear none,

This dream business is not leaving me.  Bhagavan Ramana used
to tell one story:

Once two persons were sleeping in a hall.  Both were poor.
During the sleep, one man was dreaming.  He dreamt that
he is a very rich person and he has stacked all the gold and
currency in a cupboard.  And a thief comes and takes away
all the gold and currency, and runs away.  The dreaming man
shouts in shock:  "O! the thief is running away with all my wealth.
Please catch him, please catch him...."

The other man woke up.  He was not dreaming anything, neither
the thief, nor the gold and currency.  What shall he do?  Will he
run out to the front yard to catch the thief?  Will he rush to the
police station to complain?  He will simply wake that wailing man
from sleep and dream.

The Guru is like the man who wakes us, the dreaming men, up.
The only difference is that the Guru is within your Heart.

Arunachala Siva. 

amiatall

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4) How can I believe that the teachings by Ramana and other masters as true. You may say that I need to do a self-inquiry and find the truth myself. That means I have to start with an assumption that I will know the truth by self-inquiry. In believing this assumption to be true what if I wasted all my time (if time exists!) in doing the self-inquiry and then find out that everything (enlightenment, self-realization, becoming one with everything etc) is false!

This writing has all your answers along with questions if you look more attentively. That 'what if' is like the door. Remove this door and see.

Subramanian.R

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Dear none and amitall,

The door is the I, the ego!  To get past the door, unlike other doors,
you should break it.  Then the Expanse is experienced as the
Space, where there is nothing, neither you nor Ramana, only
the Experience.

T.S. Eliot has said:

After such knowledge, what forgiveness?

There will be time, there will be time, when everything looks alike!

Arunachala Siva.   

amiatall

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Subramanian.R sir,

Beautifully put.

I is the door, 'if' is the door, 'why' is the door, what i mean here is that all this stuff is of the same door. No mind - no doors. Doors only are when mind is. We people need to see if there is such a thing as mind and doors will disappear.



none

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Thank you both.

Subramanian.R

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Dear srkudai,

Yes.  Bhagavan says in Who am I?

Sivaprakasam Pillai:  What is the nature of Swarupam?

Bhagavan:  "That is the only Real thing.  The jiva, world and
Iswara are all kalpanas, imaginations, like silver in the oyster
shell. (By the word, imaginations, He meant only dreams). These
three will appear and disappear together at the same time.

The state where "I-thought" is not there, even in a trice, is
Swarupam.  This is called as Silence. I am Swarupam.  The
world is Swarupam. Isvara is Swarupam.  All are Siva-Swarupam."

Arunachala Siva.     

saraskrishna

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Yes, all are lenghty dreams...

Consider that you are in a dream while asleep and in your dream you come across a person saying to you "hello sir, you are in dream please awaken" and you are replying to him asking "what do you mean, if I'm in dream, am I seeing you in my dream or are you also being dreamt by me?" and he just says "yes, Please wake up" 

you are obstinate and you are not at all able to accept his words just like that and you better consider going on ignoring him in your dream... after few hours you really wake up from your sleep and you see that everything was really a dream...

Here comes, so far described dream is what we are at present in as we call waking state...

When we are not with Self, then we are with dreams. so, to contact us, It is something like Ramana comes to our dream by taking a form of a human body and says to us please come out of dreams... 

It is to that extent that we are entangled with mind/thoughts that we are not able to be devoid of it..

none

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Thanks saraskrishna.