Author Topic: These fights between Saivites and Vaishnavites - 2  (Read 16931 times)

Subramanian.R

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These fights between Saivites and Vaishnavites - 2
« on: July 25, 2009, 11:54:01 AM »
Once Brahmasri Nochur Venkataraman was giving a Satsangh
lecture on Srimad Bhagavatam.    He was describing the Daksha's
sacrifice to which Siva was not called and so Siva came as Veera-
bhadra and destroyed the sacrifice and also punished the other
gods.  While describing, Vyasa calls Siva as Utkarsham, the Primordial God who can punish other gods at will, if they erred!

One Sri Vaishnavite stood up and objected to this.  He said Siva
is not Utkarsham, the Primordial God.  But Nochur who do not
normally enter into any controversy said that it was written so
in Srimad Bhagavatam by Vyasa. 

Then the protestor said:  Then that Siva must be only Vishnu
in Siva's guise!  Nochur said that he has no objection for that view
and then closed the controversy which was quite unwarranted
and irrelevant to the subject matter!

Arunachala Siva.

ramana_maharshi

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Re: These fights between Saivites and Vaishnavites - 2
« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2010, 05:06:31 PM »
Subramanian Garu,

In Atheist kamal's dasavataram movie they show how these fights between Saivites and Vaishnavites used to be in ancient tamil nadu.


Subramanian.R

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Re: These fights between Saivites and Vaishnavites - 2
« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2010, 06:34:34 PM »

Dear prasanth,

Sri Sankara had to establish his Advaitam philosophy, by fighting
these Saivites, Vaishnavites and Saktas, at different places.  In
Kashmir, he had to debate with Saktas.  In Tamizh Nadu, he had
to debate with Saivites in Chidambaram and Vaishnavites in
Sri Rangam.  [ Of course there was no Visishtadvaita philosophy
during Sri Sankara's time, because Sri Ramanuja came clear after
6 centuries but there were Veera Vaishnavites who were not worshipping Siva.]

He had a big fight at Tiruvidaimaruthur, near Kumbakonam, where
the Saivites asked him to have his philosophy affirmed by Siva
himself.  So, he went to Mahalinga Swami temple in Tiruvidaimaruthur, and in the presence of hundreds of Saivities
and told Mahalinga that Advaitam paramam, three times.  One
hand appeared suddenly from Mahalinga Siva Lingam, and showed
the hands approval to indicate yes, yes....

Arunachala Siva.       

atmavichar100

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Re: These fights between Saivites and Vaishnavites - 2
« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2012, 10:25:08 AM »
Subramaniam Sir

I am surprised by the fact that Adi Shankara had a duel with Saivites . I heard many years back in one of TV Venkataraman's talks on Thirumanthiram that Adi Shankara never had any sort of debate with any Saiva Siddhanta scholars and he was neither for it nor against it .
However that incident at Thiruvadai Maradur , with Mahalinga Swamy I am aware of but I did not know that the background to it was this duel between Shankara and Saiva Siddhanthas .
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Subramanian.R

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Re: These fights between Saivites and Vaishnavites - 2
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2012, 02:42:38 PM »
Dear atmavichar100,

Yes. This is what I read in a book.  Sri Sankara was an advaitin and he had to prove the inadequacies of various schools,
not only Buddhism and Jainism and also many subsects like Kapaliga's faith, Saiva Siddhantam, Veera Vaishnavam etc.,
It is said that Sri Sankara had to prove the inadequacies of 84 such subsects of Hinduism and non-Hindu traditions.

Arunachala Siva.

ksksat27

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Re: These fights between Saivites and Vaishnavites - 2
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2013, 10:21:25 AM »
Subramanian Garu,

In Atheist kamal's dasavataram movie they show how these fights between Saivites and Vaishnavites used to be in ancient tamil nadu.


hi Prashant,

Actually that movie you referred is a distorted movie aimed at malicious compaign.  No sort of incident like show in that movie happened really.  Nobody was punished that way.  They had ill motive to belittle Hindus when they took the movie.

One staunch vaishnavite went to court against the scenes shown as fight and punishment given by saivities, saying they never ocurred in history that way.  But he lost it.

Dharma has no place in this Kali Yuga.

Because I am from Tamil Nadu ,  I know what sort of person that actor is,  how bad he will go to hurt Hindu sentiments or distort it.

Nagaraj

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Re: These fights between Saivites and Vaishnavites - 2
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2013, 10:58:50 AM »
On the contrary,

I would beg to differ and really feel Kamal Haasan is much more theistic than most claimants of believers.

Infact, what is shown is the movie is actually one of the many violent methods by which the fanatic believers of Shiva or Vishnu killed the fanatic persons who refused to accept other faith. It is no secret that the kind of punishments made is worst!! it is called Kazhuvetram in tamil. It is no secret thousands of jains buddhists were killed in cruelest manner.

One needs to really watch his movies more than once to understand him and his views. He has never hurt any sensible sentiments of any faith. He is a champion of Vichara Maraga (if it has to be said)

Many do not understand his movies as they are too intelligent for general masses who are more infused in only satire comedies or action movies that are brainless.

In todays times, he is surely one actor who promotes values is movies, which you will never find in spiritual movies. His movies are more spiritual than any other blind brainless spiritual movies!

--
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: These fights between Saivites and Vaishnavites - 2
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2013, 11:01:58 AM »
i have no intention to bring in debate on this topic. but i am just prompted to respond as to how easily we frame views without knowledge of proper facts.

There have always been groups in the entire mankind in the earth, who were fighting each other for their supremacy.

It is said more wars are fought in the name of God and religion than some non believer.

--
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

ramana_maharshi

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Re: These fights between Saivites and Vaishnavites - 2
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2013, 12:45:21 PM »
It is said more wars are fought in the name of God and religion than some non believer.
--
I beg to differ sir. When you consider world 1,2 those wars are surely not based on religion sir.

coming to kamal hasan i heard he is a big time womenizer 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamal_Haasan#Relationships

Quote
Kamal Haasan has been accused of reusing story lines, plot elements from Western films without crediting them and also for using sexually explicit scenes and themes. He has also been accused of elitism, of offending religious sentiments and of being superficial about the social issues he depicts in his films.Other criticisms of Kamal Haasan include complaints about his obsession with needless perfection, which has caused some of his films to overshoot their budgets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamal_Haasan#Acclaim_and_criticism

ksksat27

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Re: These fights between Saivites and Vaishnavites - 2
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2013, 11:32:36 AM »
It is said more wars are fought in the name of God and religion than some non believer.
--
I beg to differ sir. When you consider world 1,2 those wars are surely not based on religion sir.

coming to kamal hasan i heard he is a big time womenizer 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamal_Haasan#Relationships

Quote
Kamal Haasan has been accused of reusing story lines, plot elements from Western films without crediting them and also for using sexually explicit scenes and themes. He has also been accused of elitism, of offending religious sentiments and of being superficial about the social issues he depicts in his films.Other criticisms of Kamal Haasan include complaints about his obsession with needless perfection, which has caused some of his films to overshoot their budgets.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamal_Haasan#Acclaim_and_criticism

Very well said  Prasanth.  Kamal is an imposter,  only aim is to belittle Hindu faiths inspite of being born as Iyengar,  he is a shame to vaishnavas and Hindus as well.

Nagaraj ji knows all this -- only to cultivate humility in my mind he has written deliberatley like this.  I know Nagaraj well --

ksksat27

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Re: These fights between Saivites and Vaishnavites - 2
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2013, 11:45:15 AM »
On the contrary,

I would beg to differ and really feel Kamal Haasan is much more theistic than most claimants of believers.

Infact, what is shown is the movie is actually one of the many violent methods by which the fanatic believers of Shiva or Vishnu killed the fanatic persons who refused to accept other faith. It is no secret that the kind of punishments made is worst!! it is called Kazhuvetram in tamil. It is no secret thousands of jains buddhists were killed in cruelest manner.

One needs to really watch his movies more than once to understand him and his views. He has never hurt any sensible sentiments of any faith. He is a champion of Vichara Maraga (if it has to be said)

Many do not understand his movies as they are too intelligent for general masses who are more infused in only satire comedies or action movies that are brainless.

In todays times, he is surely one actor who promotes values is movies, which you will never find in spiritual movies. His movies are more spiritual than any other blind brainless spiritual movies!

--

The impalement episode of jains is very well discussed in Deivathin Kural.  Jains themselves were very staunch and they set this punishment as a pre-requisite.  Later when they lost also,  Jnana sambandhar was bent on forgiving them and initiating them into shaivism,  but they vehemently invited this punishment and preferred to die for their cause.

This Jain episode -- is a disturbing piece in whole of Samabandhar's lifetime.     Sambandhar did not incarnate just to impale others. 


Anycase,  our beloved Bhagavan Ramana Maharishee admired both Buddha and Jnana Sambandhar.  That shows for this period of time,  this bhava of equality is very much required.

But with Mahavira,  Bhagavan did not comment much. 

Mahavira was enlightened -- but their path was very arduous,  one cannot follow it for all practical purpose.

Jnana Sambandhar saw that the then followers of both jain and buddhism were flawed,  they needed a right path.  That is why he objected and scolded both jains and buddhist in every poem.  He said that,  instead of depending simply on Shiva's grace both jains and buddists wanted to believe only on themselves.

I think Buddhism was less scolded by him and they also got initiated by Him after they lost.  But jains of Madurai they had a very complex psychology.  Something of the daruka forest sages got re-incarnated still retaining the ego.


« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 11:47:09 AM by ksksat27 »

Nagaraj

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Re: These fights between Saivites and Vaishnavites - 2
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2013, 12:34:51 PM »
Dear Krishnan, apart from the killings Jains and Buddhists, there have been killings of shaivaites and vaishnavites in similar manner between each other.

This was just to illustrate that nothing is ever straight when we see in the open.

It was only to bring to front the condemnation of kamal hassan for his atheistic belief.

There are things much more than just what they seem from front.

Just because something is condemded it does not become wrong and just because somebody condemns, they don't become wrong. Similarly just because there is God associated with one side, it does not becomes right and also just because there is no God associated with other, they don't become wrong.

The Truth is beyond these. as the Kural goes -

எப்பொருள் யார் யார் வாய் கேட்பினும் அப்பொருள்
மெய்ப்பொருள் காண்பதறிவு.

‘The mark of wisdom is to discern the truth, from whatever source it is heard, regardless of the matter."

Prashant, you are just copy pasting from some website, it would do better if you give out your own opinions based on your own experience. But i do not argue, it is not easy to understand Kamal Haasan at first go.

Krishnan, :) i have high regard and respect for Kamal Haasan for what he stands. He is exceptional human being. I believe ones life course does not define a human being. He may have married 2 times 3 times... what of it? Let me tell you, he is highly inspiring to me to see his integrity and courage who has been living for what he truly believes in.

--
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

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Re: These fights between Saivites and Vaishnavites - 2
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2013, 01:37:02 PM »
Dear Krsihnan and Nagaraj,

I wish to clarify as follows:

1. During Sri Sankara's fight between Saivites, there were only debates and no violence whatsoever was used by either side.

2. In the case of Jnana Sambandha, he went to Madurai only at the invitation of the Queen Mangayarkarasi who was a Saivite
(though the Pandyan king was already a Jain. and the minister KulachiAiyar was also a Saivite.  It is KulachiRaiyar who brings
Jnana Sambandha to Madurai.  When Sambandha and his retinue were staying in a Math, the previous night, the Jains put
fire on the building.  Even though the roof was burning, Sambandha and his group did not get affected.  Soon he fire was put out.
Sambandha  knew it was the villainy of Jains but he would rather punish the King than the subjects.  He therefore sang, 'Pyavae 
senRu pandiyarku Ahave,,,'  Let the fire catch the Pandyan.

The Pandyan King was already a hunch back. (Koon Pandyan) and he was having incurable colic pain.  Now his body also got
burning sensation unbearably.   Then next morning, Sambandha went to the king and it was decided that Sambandha on
one side of the body and Jains on the other side of the body, would use medicine/mantras to cure.  Sambandhar applied
Vibhuti and sang MandiramAvathu Neeru....  That side was cured from burning sensation.  When the Jains touched the other side
with peacock feather and told mantras, the burning sensation became more acute.  So the King asked them to leave the matter
'to Sambandha and he applied Vibhuti on the other side also and the burning sensation disappeared. He then applied Vibhuti
on the stomach and colic pain also got cured. He then lifted up the hunch back king and the  back got straight!

The King became extremely happy.  But Jains said that Sambandha had done some magic.  So it is they who asked for
two competitions with a wager that the loser should VOLUNTARILY GO TO GALLOWS.  The competition was Anal Vadham
and Punal Vadham.  In anal vadham, the palm leaf containing mantras will be placed on fire. When Sambandha placed his
Tiru NaLLARRu Padigam, it did not burn  but came out as a green fresh palm leaf! When Jains placed similarly their palm
leaf containing the mantra Asti Nasti, it got burnt and charred.  In Punal Vadham, Sambndha placed his poem VAzhga
AndhaNar, vAnavar, Aninam..... in Vaigai river, and it floated and reached the bank at Tiruvedagam.  The Jains' palm
leaf got drowned.

With these competitions, Jains voluntarily went to gallows.  Sambandha or King did not push them to gallows.                 
       
*****

Arunachala Siva.

ramana_maharshi

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Re: These fights between Saivites and Vaishnavites - 2
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2013, 01:42:31 PM »
nagaraj garu,

do you want me to provide links of the sexual exploitation in his movies..

I can forward you tons of links within minutes..

every one knows he is a serial kisser and his cheap vulgarity towards women in his movies.

there might be some good and bad movies... so what sir?? that is his profession and he just acts that character..  who knows what is his character in the real world?

He clearly agreed recently in one TV interview that he grew up with inspiration of periyar..

You agree that everyone is entitled to his personal opinion..

my personal opinion about KH is he does lot of overaction in his movies and a womenizer and finally he thinks more of himself .. thankfully i never bothered to watch his overaction movies from my childhood and i can really count the movies i watched..

rajnikant is much much better human being than KH ..

Nagaraj

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Re: These fights between Saivites and Vaishnavites - 2
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2013, 01:44:33 PM »
Dear Subramanian Sir

i wld also like to clarify that i had never intended or even thought about the nayanmars in my posts. but just highlighted in general that kings in those times did engage themselves to prove supremacy of their faith and used force in order to spread their faith in their kingdom.

 this is just to clarify that i do not wish or believe in the notion that nayamars wld hv at any time encouraged killing.

but it is a fact that some pandian kings engaged in violence in order to make their kingdom compketely shaivam.

--
« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 01:48:34 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta