Author Topic: Maharshi's Gospel - 1  (Read 3828 times)

Subramanian.R

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Maharshi's Gospel - 1
« on: June 18, 2009, 05:04:07 PM »
Dear srkudai,

I was today going through Maharshi's Gospel, Chapter III,
titled 'Mind Control'.  Quite surprisingly,  Bhagavan Ramana
did not use both the words, 'ignoring' and 'killing' in that
conversation!   I went through the Chapter again and again
and found that Bhagavan used the word 'destruction' while
speaking about thoughts and used the word 'shadows' while
describing thoughts.  Perhaps, I might have in that post
mentioned by you, taken the conversation of Bhagavan as
found in Maharshi's Gospel.

Q:  How can I control the mind?

Bhagavan:  There is no mind to control, if the Self is realized.
The Self shines forth when the mind vanishes.  In the realized
man the mind may be active or inactive, the Self alone exists.
For the mind, body and world are not separate from the Self.
And they cannot remain apart from the Self.  Can they be other
than the Self?  When aware of the Self, why should one worry
about these shadows?  How do they affect the Self?

[Here a few things are important.  Bhagavan says that there
is no mind to control, if the Self is realized.  That means upto
Self realization, mind control should be practised.  He also
adds, that the mind may be actie or inactive, in the realized
man.  I presume that for the Self Realized Jnani like Bhagavan
mind was still there but without any worldly thoughts.  He
finally says, Why should one worry about these shadows.  I think here He means the world, mind and the body are shadows of the Self.]

Q:  If the mind is merely a shadow, how then is one to know
the Self?

Bhagavan:  The Self is the Heart, the self-luminous.  Illumination arises from the Heart and reaches the brain, which is the seat
of mind.  The world is seen with the mind.  So you see the world by the reflected light of the Self.   The world is perceived by an
act of the mind.  When the mind is illumined, it is aware of the world.  When it is not so illumined, it is not aware of the world.  If the mind is turned in, towards the source of illumination,
the objective knowledge ceases and the Self alone shines as the Heart.

[ Here Bhagavan means that so long as the mind is not illumined by the Self, the mind becomes empty.  Only Self alone shines.  Since Bhagavan says clearly that the mind is seated in brain,
the seeker should not direct the light of the Self, towards mind in brain and instead  leave it alone and the Self which is self-luminous will shine on its own accord.  I presume, that if the mind in brain is allowed no light, then the mind is dead, because
the reflected light is the oxygen for mind. Do not direct the light of the Self towards mind.]

Then Bhagavan gives the example of moon getting the light from Sun. The moon at the time of the high noon,  is not needed, since the Sun shines.  The moon is need only when the Sun
sets.

to be contd.

(Source: Maharshi's Gospel.  The Teaching of Bhagavan
Ramana Maharshi.  Originaly published on the 60th Jayanti
of Bhagavan in December 1949.  I think this was compiled
by Maurice Frydman.)

Arunachala Siva.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Maharshi's Gospel - 1
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2009, 06:52:33 PM »
Dear srkudai,

I am happy you have sent a detailed post.  Let me also
complete the Mind Control chapter, in my next few posts.
Bhagavan Ramana uses the words 'destroy the thoughts'
in some other paragraph.  Let us analyse that also.

Bhagavan Ramana says:  [in Maharshi's gospel]

1. Mind cannot destroyed.  Mind can at best be controlled
from rushing to the brain.  Mind has to be in the Heart
and this mind does all activities of a Jnani.  [Saiva Siddhantis
call it Suddha Manas.]

2.  Thoughts have to be definitely destroyed, in case the
mind goes to the brain and stars a train of thoughts.

3.  When the Self shines, the mind shines in self realized
persons.  Or, one can say that the Self alone shines and does
all the activities including writing Nan Yar!  The Self alone
shines is okay but the Self is action-less, because it is Nirguna
and Achala.  Action involves mind.

Arunachala Siva.   
 

amiatall

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Re: Maharshi's Gospel - 1
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2009, 07:13:25 PM »
So in deep sleep 'I' is back to the heart, suspended temporary. At that time we are realized and know that we are, but we don't know what we are, this is the darkness of ignorance. In this waking-limited-consciousness state we don't know that we are realized. So body is , consciousness is, then who is this 'I'? An imagination, as thoughts.
If we attend to deep sleep state in this waking consciousness then what happens? I think so too. Until grandhi Knot which is limited-I-consciousness is severed, the mind should attend to Self and have no thoughts as such. It means all its attention is on Self and there are no thoughts. After severation we can talk about thoughts.
.......

Nagaraj

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Re: Maharshi's Gospel - 1
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2009, 11:12:16 PM »
:) Mind as a topic for discussion is abstract subject. The definition of Mind will be different for different people. One person's understanding of what is mind will be totally different from another. Therefore, when we read the dialogues with Sri Ramana Maharshi or even dialogues with Sri Annamalai Swami, we should remember that Sri Ramana Maharshi, Sri Annamalai Swami or for this matter any Guru, when they answer questions regarding subtle subjects such of mind, they actually look into the question from the questioner's point of view, i.e. from their own shoes and then they answer to their question in such a way that their question is answered.

Keeping this in mind, when we read these recordings of dialogues, we should first look within as to what is the real question within us regarding Mind. For example, it does not matter whether the Guru says Ignore the thoughts, ignore the mind, Mind is shadow, Mind has to be destroyed, thoughts have to be killed, etc... If we begin to just accept these words or take them literally then it becomes no short of a blind belief. we have to reason it out....

Please see this, we need to look into the Gist of these dialogues - the central theme in all these is just one and the same - call it kill, destroy, shadow, etc... the central theme is to disassociate oneself from Mind. Therefore, it does not matter, whether we understand it as Ignoring the mind or destroying the mind, or considering the mind as shadow. The central theme of Sri Ramana Maharshi or Annamalai Swami quoted in respective posts only shout the gist of disassociating oneself with Mind or thoughts or whatever each of us describe it personally.

Since this subject of Mind which is so very subtle, inorder to ease the understanding of larger spiritual aspirants and for purposes of Self Analysis, the Vedanta came up with the concept of Pancha Koshas or the 5 Sheaths under which lies the illuminating Self.

Pancha Koshas are nothing but the Mind which has been systematically split into 5 sheaths. The Mind is -

Annamaya     - Food Sheath
Pranamaya    - Pranic or energy sheath
Monamaya    - Mental or Psycho-emotional sheath
Vijnanamaya  - Intellectual Sheath
Anandamaya  - Brahman, Bliss, our real nature.

Mind, if you study carefully, only revolves around these 5 sheaths alone.

Just for the purposes of our understanding and positive discussion, I would like to ask you both one question, let alone these dialogues of Sri Ramana Mahashi and Annamalai Swami. Let them be set aside for this moment.

Why do you want to destroy/kill/ignore the mind? Why do you want to consider it as a shadow? What harm has the mind done to each one of us that we want to destroy the mind or thoughts? is there any valid reason behind this? Let alone the questioner be in the talks and dialogues, do you really have this question? If Yes, then what is the reason behind it?

For YOU - Individually, what is the reason for which you want to kill this mind? only after seeking answer to this query, it will be appropriate to proceed further discussion on this thread. Should we aspire to kill the mind or destroy the mind only because Bhagawan replied to the questioner? Are you the Questioner? the same questioner? Please reflect on these. :)  Please reflect! Why is it to be destroyed or killed? what is considered as shadow? Even to seek answer to why Mind has to be destroyed, what is Mind in first place? Do you know what mind exactly is?  that you are so confidently seeking to kill it, destroy it? Even to consider it as shadow, what is the Shadow of? Do you know whose Shadow are you talking about?


Nagaraj
« Last Edit: June 18, 2009, 11:25:01 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Maharshi's Gospel - 1
« Reply #4 on: June 18, 2009, 11:37:17 PM »
Dear Udai,

:)
Please reflect and see, If it is a shadow, whose shadow is it? Do you have a shadow?
My question is - why do you think you are different from body, mind?

you said if there is no mind, where is the body? the question I am asking here is then why are you seeking to kill, ignore, destroy the mind? Is there mind? where is it? at the same time, you say we are not mind, we are not body....

:)
Nagaraj
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Maharshi's Gospel - 1
« Reply #5 on: June 18, 2009, 11:45:45 PM »
I have two simple questions -

1. What is the shadow that is being discussed
2. Why has the need arised to think that -
           i.  you are not the mind
           ii.  you are not the body
           iii.  that you are different from mind and body
   Why do you think thus? what made you think thus, the reason behind this?

Mind and body is not different from you. you are not separate from it, then what is a shadow, how can a shadow exist?

:)
Nagaraj
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Maharshi's Gospel - 1
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2009, 12:04:20 AM »
:) I just happened to pick Ribhu Gita and flicked through one of the chapters - which goes like this -

What appears as delusion is of the nature of Brahman
What appears as the mind and such is of the nature of Brahman
What appears as the body is of the nature of Brahman
What appears as the things seen is of the nature of Brahman
What appears desirable is of the nature of Brahman
What appears as permanent is of the nature of Brahman
There is not an atom apart from the pure Supreme Brahman
All appearances that rise are of the nature of Brahman.

Chapter 11, verse 6

I had not read this earlier to my post, but I just found it tallying to my understanding here in this context with the subject being discussed.

Once this is understood all this exercise to control the mind, kill the mind, that it is our shadow and not us, ignoring the mind - thoughts, etc... are left unnecessary.

Sadasiva Brahmendra in one of his songs sings thus -

Paramahansa Rupena Vihartha. Brahma Vishnu Rudradika Kartha, Khelathi Brahmande

He plays in the form of the Paramahamsa(i.e. the Brahman always whispering "I am Brahman"  and "Everything is Brahman" through the cosmic sound "Om" ) and is the creator of Brahma, Vishnu and Rudra and other Gods (Sarvam Brahma Mayam, re re)

Everything is verily Brahman itself. It has to be simply be taken literally, no second analysis, study, understanding is required, But if still done, it also is Brahman itself, i.e. Mind, body, etc...  This is the thoughtless (state) - no analysis required, no understanding is anymore required, no study is required anymore!

Brahmendra further says - It is a state of Pure awareness of the nature of INSEPARABLE Bliss (Atmananda)

You are  That Brahman!  and be done with it! Thats it!

Nagaraj
« Last Edit: June 19, 2009, 01:08:58 AM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

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Re: Maharshi's Gospel - 1
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2009, 11:25:21 AM »
Dear everyone,

Mind staying with Brahman or Atman or the Self or the 'Thaan'
is a naught, because it has no activity and the Self does everything.

Mind when it goes to the brain, creates thoughts, which causes
havoc.  It creates knowledge as well ignorance.  If it remains
with Brahman in the Heart, it is Jnanam.  Upadesa Saram, the
famous verse 10.

Arunachala Siva.