Author Topic: WHOIS SATGURU?  (Read 21460 times)

SANKAR

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WHOIS SATGURU?
« on: July 14, 2008, 09:21:23 AM »
SOME PEOPLE SAY GO TO A LIVING SAT GURU. IS THE SATGURU NONLIVING

PLEASE GENUINE COMMENTS WELCOME FROM ALL CORNERS INCLUDING CRITICISM
« Last Edit: August 27, 2008, 10:14:26 AM by SANKAR »
KANNAN MEERA SANKAR

Subramanian.R

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Re: WHOIS SATGURU?
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2008, 04:36:41 PM »
Dear Sankar, as I posted elsewhere, the Guru is one in whose
presence, (his books, his words, his name), the seeker gets
total peace and gets all his doubts resolved, without questioning.
There is no qualification like, living or dead, man or
woman, young or old.  Even the Guru can be a bird and not a
human being!  Please see Avadhuta Gita.  Arunachala Siva.

nonduel

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Re: WHOIS SATGURU?
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2008, 04:02:00 PM »
Dear Sankar, as I posted elsewhere, the Guru is one in whose
presence, (his books, his words, his name), the seeker gets
total peace and gets all his doubts resolved, without questioning.
There is no qualification like, living or dead, man or
woman, young or old.  Even the Guru can be a bird and not a
human being!  Please see Avadhuta Gita.  Arunachala Siva.

Dear Subramanian,

Could you elaborate more on this important subject, with Sri Ramana's talks.  My understanding would be that the Sadguru must be living. I think that Sri Lakshmana Swamy in "No mind I Am the Self" specifically say this.
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

nonduel

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Re: WHOIS SATGURU?
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2008, 04:23:44 PM »
Dear Sankar, as I posted elsewhere, the Guru is one in whose
presence, (his books, his words, his name), the seeker gets
total peace and gets all his doubts resolved, without questioning.
There is no qualification like, living or dead, man or
woman, young or old.  Even the Guru can be a bird and not a
human being!  Please see Avadhuta Gita.  Arunachala Siva.

Dear Subramanian,

Could you tell me which translation is the best. I believe some are not correct in their translation.
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

Subramanian.R

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Re: WHOIS SATGURU?
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2008, 04:49:25 PM »
Dear nonduel, your two posts.  Scriptures mention three types of
'dikshas' that is,  Sparsa diksha, Sakshu diksha, Mano-diksha
or Bhavana diksha.  The first is by touch, like hen touching the egg
for hatching.  The second is by look, like fish looking at the eggs.  The
third is by thinking, like tortoise thinking about the eggs on the shore.
Bhagavan used sparsa diksha very rarely.  He used looking more
often.  Kayvya kanta Muni has said:  "Do not sit directly before the
Bhagavan!  If He looks at you, the hrudaya kranthi (the knots) gets
snapped immediately and you will not go back to your family!"  In 108
holy names on Bhagavan, there are names Pullambuja Vilochanaya Namah,
that is one who looks at others with eyes like red lotuses.  Again,
Uttheepata Nayanaya Namah, one who has got a look like piercing
arrow!  Bhagavan used mano diksha or bhavana diksha very rarely.
(Do not ask how can He think?).  The first two were used when He
was in body.  The third one, He uses even today.  But the third one is
a two way process.  If one thinks of Him, He will think of him.  If one
has conviction (Bhavana), He will have the bhavana on him.  Hence
there is no need for Bhagavan (or any Guru) to be in body.  His
Presence (Sannidhya) will do but this requires our thinking and
conviction.  The only test is whether you get peace. 

Avdhuta Gita, the English translation of Ramakrishna Math is
excellent.  For that matter, all advaita books of Ramakrishna Math
are quite good. 

I have not read "No mind, I am the Self."  Hence I cannot write about
Sri Lakshmanaswami's book.

Arunachala Siva.       

Subramanian.R

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Re: WHOIS SATGURU?
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2008, 05:52:18 PM »
Dear nonduel,  on Avadhuta Gita.  I mentioned about Avadhuta having
several gurus (24 beings) which included a bird.  This story is not
available in Avadhuta Gita. I am sorry.  Avadhuta or Dattatreya is
the son of Sage Atri and Anasuya.  He had 24 gurus and a vulture was
one of his gurus.  He saw a vulure flying with a piece of meat on its
beak, and several vultures chased it to grab the meat.  The bird
decided to drop it and lo and behlold,  after dropping the meat,
all other birds left it.  Avadhuta learned that once you leave your
possesions, nobody will come near you.  Thus he held the bird as
his guru!  The story appears in Markendaya Purana.  There are also
books narrating Dattatreya Charitra.  About Avadhuta Gita per se,
which is a pure advaita text, without stories, I shall write separately.

Arunachala Siva.   

nonduel

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Re: WHOIS SATGURU?
« Reply #6 on: July 19, 2008, 12:17:18 AM »
Dear Subramanian,

My memory failing I cannot remember where I read this. I think it is because to remember, or think about Sri Ramana for example, one would automatically visualize his body, and Bhagavan isn't this body. If I'm not mistaken, this was given with a warning not to do this, that one needs a living guru.

Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

Subramanian.R

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Re: WHOIS SATGURU?
« Reply #7 on: July 19, 2008, 11:32:02 AM »
Dear nonduel, Thinking about Bhagavan's frame and repeating His
name was never discouraged by Bhagavan.  But He has said that
the Brahman is beyond forms and names.  But many of us have to
start only from a name-form worship or contemplation to reach the
formless worship or contemplation or meditation.  Hence this
allowance.  But I still maintain the stand that the Guru need not
be in a physical body nor he should be a human being.  One can
"see" the Brahman as much as in a hill and in a bird.  I propose
write to David Godman about Sri Lakshmanaswami's saying that
the Guru should be in a living body.  When I get a reply, I shall
post it.   Arunachala Siva. 

SANKAR

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Re: WHOIS SATGURU?
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2008, 05:15:56 AM »
Dear Sankar, as I posted elsewhere, the Guru is one in whose
presence, (his books, his words, his name), the seeker gets
total peace and gets all his doubts resolved, without questioning.
There is no qualification like, living or dead, man or
woman, young or old.  Even the Guru can be a bird and not a
human being!  Please see Avadhuta Gita.  Arunachala Siva.

Dear sir, I totally agree with as I witnessed during my sleep, I visualised baghwan looking at me which gave me a unexpressible feeling and peace which was never experienced by me before in my life. But it is unfortunate that it is for very shorter duration. Neverthless HE is eternal and beyond time and space and real satguru. I accept him whole heartedly as my guru, companion, guide, and spiritual uplifter who can reach me safely to the destination. I always remain at his feet and surrender to him; because I do nat know anything much about spirituallity as I was a nasthikadu and I dont go to temple but I always pray god only in my mind as that is very easy, simple, no difficulties in travelling and spending money and time. What else a poor fellow can do to a GOD; since he is giver all the time and I am a begger all the time even now I beg at him to please release me from this body consciousness by his grace. But I am a thief because my doubtful mind does not hold on him for long as it moves like wave all the time. So I always beg for his Grace but HE is also doing the similar way as I am doing. It is my ill will that is stopping HIM to shower his grace all the time. Any way I try and beg as for as possible all the time to forgive me for my mistakes committed and dont let me do mistakes again and please save from this body consciousness and reach me to the state of I before my breathe stops. I sincerely request him till my breathe ends and I am blessed if this happens before my last breathe. I shed my tears at his feet as my only offerings as could give him nothing else as He is the giver and I remain a begger all the time. Please forgive me anything wrong in this, this is my hearts feeling.

I once again thank you very much for your kind and corrected reply.

The above is the cause I posted is satguru necessrily a living being on this guru poornima day.

Surrender to SRI RAMANAR.

ARUNACHALA SHIVA
KANNAN MEERA SANKAR

Subramanian.R

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Re: WHOIS SATGURU?
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2008, 01:07:39 PM »
Dear Sankar, I am happy that Bhagavan is appearing in your dream.
I had that fortune only on one or two occasions.  But kindly do not
wait for the dream, sleep etc.,  Please visualize Him in the wakeful
state, either mentally or through a photograph of Him.  The Guru
will push you inside from the out and the Guru inside your Heart will
also pull you from inside into the Heart.  That is the starting point for
self-attention or self-enquiry. 

Arunachala Siva.

     

nonduel

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Re: WHOIS SATGURU?
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2008, 05:47:33 PM »
Dear Sankar,

There has been a few posts recently on "Bhavana". Many Jnanis have also taught the same. The Sadguru removes the doubts, but one has to accept it as the Truth and be CONVINCED.

Then how often I will still have a doubt sprouting and I will munch it. Thoughts including things like...I should do something, there is probably something more to do, is what I am doing correct, I need a guru (living?) or will not make it, etc...etc...

Then I turn my attention inward. It is a merry-go-round. Sometimes thoughts are so numerous, there's a thought that I will never make it.

Here on this forum, most of us have had this inner painfull yearning for Self-Realisation. This is Grace flowing from Self.

Thus, Bhavana is very important for removing doubts and we should abide with conviction that I AM THAT I AM, I AM BRAHMAN.  I should become "drunk" with Bhavana.

There is ONLY Brahman, ALL is ONE, it is all the SELF.  Thus everything thing written here, the members, all is Brahman. It is also all impregnated with Sri Ramana's Love. I understand why so many wrote poetry, songs of praise. Because it is all beyond words and only poetry can give a glimse.

I feel bless to be with the members here.

Dear Subramanian, my gratitude for all your numerous posts. You have helped me very much in removing doubts and clarifying Sri Ramana's teaching
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

nonduel

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Re: WHOIS SATGURU?
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2008, 06:25:01 PM »
From David Godman's site:

http://davidgodman.org/interviews/al4.shtml

QUOTE:

"""Maalok: Ramana Maharshi himself never had a physical Guru - I mean no living person. Is it correct to say that he often encouraged people to be connected to the Guru within, the Self, instead of the physical Guru? On the other hand, his direct disciple, Sri Lakshmana Swamy (who realized the Self in presence of Ramana Maharshi) says that a living physical Guru is necessary for Self-Realization. Can you help clarify these apparently contradictory viewpoints? What is your best understanding on this issue?



David: Sri Ramana himself never had a human Guru, but he is on record as saying that the mountain of Arunachala was his Guru. In his devotional poetry he says that Arunachala was his Guru, his Self and his God. So, his Guru did have a physical form, even though it wasn't a human one. 

     Sri Ramana always taught that a Guru is necessary for everyone who wants to realize the Self. When he spoke on this topic, he would usually say that the Self takes the form of a physical Guru who instructs the devotee and supervises his progress. At the same time, the Guru is also the Self within. That inner Self, that inner Guru, pulls the mind into itself, and if the mind is mature enough, the inner Guru dissolves the mind completely. Both the inner and the outer Guru are required to complete the work. 

     You have cited Lakshmana Swamy as someone who says that a living human Guru is essential for devotees who want to realize the Self. He is on record as saying that in a few very rare cases the Self within can alone serve as the Guru and bring about enlightenment. He puts Ramana Maharshi in this category. The vast majority of people, he says, need a physical Guru. I don't think that this is too different from what Sri Ramana said on many occasions.

     The Saiva religion of South India speaks of three categories of seekers. Those in the first and biggest category need a human Guru because they have a large amount of impurities or spiritual impediments. The second category comprises devotees who are much more pure. These people can realize the Self by having God appear to them in the form of a Guru to instruct and enlighten them. Many of the old Saiva saints, whose writings and stories now form part of the Saiva canon, fall into this category. 

     In the highest category there are those very rare souls who can realize the Self through the power of the Self within. 

     In my opinion, the number of people who can realize the Self without the aid of a living human Guru is very, very small.""


Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

nonduel

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Re: WHOIS SATGURU?
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2008, 09:07:16 PM »
Here is another site which is about this subject.

http://benegal.org/ramana_maharshi/books/ow/ow012.html

I didn't copy it here because it is too lenghty.  What is peculiar about this subject, is that your opinion changes depending of the discussion, or talk with Sri Ramana. The Guru is within, it is the Self.  It is within thus why search outside?  Then, as long as you think you are the body, the outer master is necessary?

Does it just depends on your Bhavana?

Quote:
""B.: The master is within; meditation is meant to remove the
ignorant idea that he is only external. If he were some stranger whom you awaited, he would be bound to disappear also. What would be the use of a transient being like that? But as long as you think you are separate or that you are the body, so long is the outer master also necessary and He will appear as if with a body. When the wrong identification of yourself with the body ceases, the master will be found to be none other than the Self.""
« Last Edit: July 21, 2008, 09:11:41 PM by nonduel »
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

Subramanian.R

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Re: WHOIS SATGURU?
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2008, 01:38:52 PM »
Dear nonduel,  I am thankful to you for your extrace of David
Godman's interview with Sri Lakshmanaswami.  Both David and
Sri Lakshmanaswami agree about three types of gurus, Siva within,
Siva appearing in the name of a guru for a while and the living gurus,
who are Siva's devotees who are designed to be teachers.  In fact,
in the case of Saint Manikkavachagar, Siva appeared as a Guru for
a while, in the place called Tirukkazhukundram, and disappeared later.
Manikkavachagar's life is a wonder.  First Siva appeared before him as
an Effulgent light in a place called Tirupperundurai in Southern Tamil Nadu. The Siva appeared as a brahmin guru in Tirukkazhukundram and Manikka-
vachagar became Self-realized, sang songs in a number of places, and
finally merged in Siva, again as a light merging with light in Chidambaram.

Coming to your point, from your posts I guess you need a living guru
to clarify your doubts about Ramana Way.  If this so, there are several
elders inside  Ramanasramam, and David Godman through his website.
Finding a living guru firstly it may be difficult and secondly you are not
sure whether they are genuine, in these days of bogus and self-styled
gurus.

Arunachala Siva.  
 

nonduel

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Re: WHOIS SATGURU?
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2008, 04:53:08 PM »
Dear Subamania,

I have no doubt about Sri Ramana Way. My doubt is about the need of a living guru.

There is a story I read recently. A King asked a disciple if he could do the mantra he was doing, to which the disciple replied no because he had to ask a guru. The King nevertheless practice the mantra. After a while he met the disciple again and asked him if he was doing it correctly, to which the disciple said yes, but that it was worthless. The King asked why?  The disciple then gave an order to the guards to arrest the King. The guards, didn't move and the disciple gave the order again with the same result. The King insulted by this, told the guards to arrest the disciple, and they proceeded with the arrest. The disciple then told the King that this was the answer to his question. Although the order was the same, it lacked the authority of the King.

Consequently, does the teaching of Sri Ramana, from books,  contains the authority (like the King)? 

This question, to my knowledge was never clearly answered by Sri Ramana. This is why I am asking.  I was very happy when you translated Bhavana. My present "feeling" is that Bhavana is the answer. Or that one needs to answer it by himself.

Maybe David Godman's reply to you will clarify this.
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.