Author Topic: Freewill and Predetermination - 4  (Read 1867 times)

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47994
    • View Profile
Freewill and Predetermination - 4
« on: April 22, 2009, 05:37:42 PM »
Stated differently, the problem of freewill, according to the
theologians, places God, the Creator, between the horns of a dilemma.
If God gave human beings free will, then God is neither omnipotent
nor omniscient.  If humans have free will, then God does not know
what will happen because what happens will depend on the free
will of what people decide.  God will not have control of everything,
because humans will have the power to change things.  On the other hand, if God is omniscient and omnipotent and deos control everything, while humans have no free will or possibly to do things
other than as they happen, then such a God is unbelievably cruel
and capricious.  People are advised by sages and scriptures to be good, yet, if they have no ability to change their fate, then that is
just cruel.

In the same way, that person who realizes his identity with the
deathless Self acts his part on the human stage without fear or
anxiety, hope or regret, not being touched by the part played.
If one were to aske what realityone has when all one's actions
are determined, it would lead only to the question: Who then,
am I? If the ego that thinks and makes decisions is not real, and
yet I know that I exist, what is the reality of me?  This is but a
preparatory, mental version of the quest.  "Others are not responsible
for what happens to us.  They are only instruments of what would happen to us someway or other."  [Conscious Immortality by
Paul Brunton and Munagala Venkatramaiah, Sri Ramanasramam,
Tiruvannamalai.]

(Source: As indicated in Part 1)

Arunachala Siva.

matthias

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 393
    • View Profile
Re: Freewill and Predetermination - 4
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2009, 10:05:44 AM »
the first part is very interessting te question after a omniscent omnipotent god....

I do not know how to describe it, but you see is it neccessary to know wether this is true or not? I do not think that the fact that god is or is not omnipotent has an affect for seeker...atma vichara and all genuine nondual practices undergo the duality....the root of hte mind is washed out, or burned away....

and when this starts to happen freewill or not is no question, everything is seen a spontaniously arising happening...without plan or with a plan that arose out of nothing is itself empty of susbstance and vanishes again....in fact if reality is seen as such an empty mirage the question after a creator, or a god that keeps the whole universe together is just as empty as any other idea...including the idea//feeling "I exist"....or "I exist not" Or neither do "I exist" nor do "I not exist"... all is the self or the nature of mind...all the feelings and arising idea out of htis feelings are empty and skylike in their openess

like padmashambava (the lotus born) said:

    Don’t investigate the root of things,
     Investigate the root of Mind!
     Once the mind’s root has been found,
     You’ll know one thing, yet all is thereby freed.
     But if the root of Mind you fail to find,
     You will know everything but nothing
            understand.

guru padmasambhava brought dzogchen or the nondual realisation from oddyana to tibet, and since this day the realiszation of it is unbroken.....

it is incredible how close these first teachings of padmasambhava and bhagawan are...and that is a proof of the genuine source of realization that both teachings have....they are pure from the beginning and they are pure enough to alway be a living truth....

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47994
    • View Profile
Re: Freewill and Predetermination - 4
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2009, 10:44:00 AM »
Dear matthias,

Once a person ceases to consider that he is the body-mind complex,
then both predetermination and free will do not affect him.  All the
discussions are from the point of view of devotees who still consider
the body-mind complex as true and permanent.

Arunachala Siva.

matthias

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 393
    • View Profile
Re: Freewill and Predetermination - 4
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2009, 01:45:17 PM »
yes indeed....

and when vichara dawns this tighs are all slowly loosened up (or it is explosively realized depends on karma I think)

so we should practice and not think so much about the nature of the self...most important thing is to realize it, know it, get conviction in it etc...

but it is of course important to know what we are searching and why...so scriptures are of great importance of course....but just as the fundament for understanding...mental understanding is not the goal but we all know this very well