Author Topic: Tolerance  (Read 9098 times)

Graham

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Tolerance
« on: July 02, 2007, 01:50:52 PM »
The purpose of this forum is to permit people to post their questions, answers and observations for other members to respond to.

Faith is an emotive issue and has many facets. No-one has any right to condemn other people just because they disagree with them.

You cannot report topics to the administrator just because you don't like them. If you are offended by something then you have the freedom to post your own message.

Everyone wants their voice to be heard, this is a fact of life, but tolerance is very important. However, generally offensive material, obvious lies and racial comments will be removed without hesitation.

In January and February of 2007 links to pornographic sites were placed on this forum. This is the kind of thing that should be reported immediately.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2009, 03:42:54 AM by Graham »

atmavichar100

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Re: Tolerance
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2012, 12:01:39 PM »
Dear Friends

I am relatively new to this forum and I do not know the background of many people here and what sort of pleasant / unpleasant exchanges have happened in the past between members here . These sort of unpleasant exchanges are not unique to this forum and I see it repeated in many other forums .In the past I used to visit some forums but later took a big break from forums and postings as I found it mentally draining  and recently again  joined few forums to see how it works . But I found every where there is a war or sort after few days ,then people quit , again come back ,again quit and go back and this drama continues .
I have myself been benefited a lot from many of these forums including this forum and I feel we must be very careful to get the best of these forums without getting trapped in unwanted fights that is mentally draining .
Based on my past experience I have found that If everyone follows the following steps I feel we can avoid the negativity and continue to enjoy the positive aspects of sharing .
One of the perils of sharing your feelings openly in a forum like this  is that you invite various sort of reactions  for your posts and not every reaction will be conducive to your taste .
You can choose to ( It is not just you , it applies to me as well as anyone else )
1) ignore the unpleasant and carry on with what is pleasant or
2)you can ignore both ( pleasant /unpleasant ) and carry on posting what you feel just as a catharsis or just remain silent and allow people to decide whatever they want to about your silence
3) Get on on war / argument with those who passed comments that were unpleasant to you
4) If you feel if have made a mistake and got on a war then best is to clarify your position as most of the time the problem is in miscommunication or apologize to the person whom you felt you have hurt directly or indirectly . This will help cool tempers .
If you do 1 ,2 then you will have less headache and mental tension but if you do (3) then be prepared for lot of mental tension and stress unless it is a healthy exchange .
The only option for you after (3) is to do (4) to get back .

Everyone is entitled to their Opinion ( within the forum rules ) .Also please remember that every comment does not merit a response .
You have a choice of how you respond to anyone's comments as per 1,2,3 ,4given above .No one can force you to respond or not to respond .
If you fail to exercise that Choice properly then you land up in a mess like what happens in many forums .
I leave it to you all  to decide how you choose to respond in future .
I am writing this not just to advice others but also to remind myself to walk what I talk .
I am highly happy  with Graham for creating this forum as it has helped me get back to the teachings of Bhagwan Ramana and his works from a diverse perspective .I look forward for more enriching wisdom here from other members .

All the best .Om Peace .
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Ravi.N

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Re: Tolerance
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2012, 12:17:49 PM »
Krishna(Atmavichar),
I agree with you.
Namaskar.

Nagaraj

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Re: Tolerance
« Reply #3 on: October 06, 2012, 12:22:23 PM »
Sri Atmavichar100,

yesterday night, i was pondering over this and expressed my thoughts under "My Musings" topic given below:

http://www.arunachala-ramana.org/forum/index.php?topic=7164.msg31571#msg31571

I am not suggesting anything below, but letting out in the air, some thought for contemplation. I do not genuinely have a solution for this. But, in past having conversed with Sri Graham, he had suggested, ultimately reasoning wins, but, it entirely depends upon the members to reason out in a fashion that is non - violent.

I do not know about the ways of other religion. But Here in India, especially, in Sanathana Dharma. Ultimately it is Shastra Pramana.

That which is acceptable by Shastra is acceptable and that which is not acceptable, is not acceptable.

Tolerance that we are talking about is a kind of anarchy. To exhibit such of tolerance, none of us are Sages here. I therefore strongly felt, a need for clear rules. But i discern these are compulsions of electronic medium. There is really no solution other than ones own conscience.

Thoughts of members that are Shastra Pramana does not become their thoughts. This is more reason, to be God Fearing, Fear of Scriptures, Fear of talking against the Voice of Gods. These are lacking.

Sri Ramanashramam also was subject to great politics, and Bhagavan allowed Sarvadhikari to reign, to keep and maintain the sanctity of Truth. Shastra Pramanam.

Well. I do not know any solution. Just letting out my thoughts in air.

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

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Re: Tolerance
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2012, 12:46:49 PM »
Friends,
Truly nothing has happened and sometimes we need to call a spade a spade. :)
I am reminded of this incident from Sadhu ArunAchala's Reminiscences:
"In 1938 Stanley-Jones a Congregational Bishop came to call one morning. He was accompanied by a secretary
who took copious notes of all he said and little of what the Maharshi was allowed to say, which was not much.
There were two other Christians in the party. He was on a tour of India collecting material for a book which was
out to prove that Hindu Saints were nothing as compared with just an ordinary Christian believer. He wanted to
know what Bhagavan’s method had been and how much and what he had attained by it. His whole attitude was
arrogant and uncompromising. For the actual conversation I have refreshed my memory from the Talks, though
modified according to my memory.
S. J.: What is the quest and goal? How far have you progressed?
B.: The goal is the same for all. But why search for a goal at all? Why are you not content as you are?
S. J.: Is there then no goal?
B.: I am asking you why you are seeking a goal?
S. J.: I have my own views on these things. I want to know what Maharshi has to say about them.
B.: Maharshi has no doubts so does not need to ask such questions. What are you searching for?
S. J.: I consider the goal to be the realization of the Higher Mind by the lower mind so that the Kingdom of
Heaven may come to earth. The lower mind is now incomplete; only in this way can it be perfected.
B.: So you do admit a lower mind which is incomplete and seeks perfection in a Higher Mind. Tell me, in what
way is that lower mind different from the Higher Mind?
S. J.: (Ignoring the question but declaiming his own views in which alone he was interested) The Kingdom of
Heaven was brought down to earth by Jesus Christ. I consider him the Kingdom personified. I want everybody
to realise this. Christ said, “I am hungry with other men’s hunger.” Mutual partnership is joy and to be apart from
the Kingdom of Heaven is pain. If that Kingdom is universalised each of us will become at one with the rest."
B.: You talk about a difference between people, but what becomes of this difference in deep sleep?
S. J.: (Again ignoring the question) I want to be wide awake.
B.: You believe that you are awake now. On the contrary this is only a dream in a long sleep. Everybody is
asleep, this world and all actions are only a dream.
S. J.: This is Vedanta. I have no use for it. These differences are not imaginary. They are positive. (Harping
back to his old question) Can Maharshi tell us what he has found? What is this waking state of which he talks?
B.: It is beyond the three states of waking, dream and deep sleep.
S. J.: But I am awake now and I know it.
B.: But in the real waking state there are no differences.
S. J.: What happens to this world in that case?
B.: There is no world in your deep sleep. When you wake does the world suddenly appear and tell you,
“I exist”?
S. J.: No, but other people tell me that there is a world and that it needs spiritual and moral regeneration.
So there must actually be a world. All are agreed as to that.
B.: You now see the world and the people in it, but can they exist apart from your thoughts?
S. J.: (Going off at a tangent) I enter the world with Love.
B.: Are you apart from it that you can enter it?
S. J.: I am identified with it. I came here to ask questions and to listen to Maharshi’s answers. Why do
you keep on asking me questions in this way?
B.: But Maharshi has answered your questions. The real waking state does not involve differences.
S. J.: Have you reached the goal?
B.: There is no goal apart from the Self, so how can it be something to be gained afresh? If so it would be
impermanent, and what is impermanent will one day disappear. Do you not agree that the goal must be eternal?
So it must be within the Self. Seek and find it there.
S. J.: I want to know your experience.
B.: Whatever experience I have does not affect the question. Each must find the truth for himself. How can
someone else find it for you?
S. J.: Not at all. Each person’s experience has a human value and can be shared by others.

continued....

Ravi.N

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Re: Tolerance
« Reply #5 on: October 06, 2012, 12:52:52 PM »
Reminiscences of Sadhu ArunAchala continued....
B.: The questioner must solve his own question, another cannot do it for him.
S. J.: (Smugly) But I know the answer.
B.: Tell us!
S. J.: Twenty years ago I was shown the Kingdom of Heaven. It was by God’s Grace alone, I made no effort to
attain it. I was happy. Now my purpose is to make it available for all. Nevertheless I want to know Maharshi’s
experience of the divine.
Bhagavan kept quiet. Stanley-Jones then gave a discourse on Love. How he had two Ashrams in N. India
and how through these he was spreading Love through the world. He was in the best sermon form and the secretary
was kept busy recording his words. After a while he again renewed his offensive and tried to get Bhagavan to tell
him of his experiences.
Mrs. Jinarajadasa, wife of the President of the Theosophical Society who happened to be in the Hall at
the time protested.
“Here we believe that Maharshi has himself brought the Kingdom of Heaven to earth, now you pester him with
questions relating to his experience. Is it not rather up to you to follow his instructions and seek it within yourself?”
S. J.: But how shall I realize it?But he would not stop. He kept on nagging at Bhagavan refusing to understand what he was telling
him, until eventually I became impatient.
I was sitting at the far end of the Hall meditating or at least trying to, but his absurd persistence
distracted me. Eventually I could stand it no longer and called out.
“Why do you ask Maharshi to realize it for you? The Kingdom of Heaven is within you. Your own scriptures
tell you that.”
He turned round in surprise to see who was this impertinent person who dared intervene and question a
pillar of Congregationalism.
“I don’t,” he snorted angrily.
“Yes, you do. Why don’t you follow your own Christian teaching and find the Kingdom of Heaven
within?”
S. J.: “It doesn’t say that. It says ‘come among you’.”
I.: “No, that is not correct, ‘within you.’ Also it adds,"seek ye first the Kingdom of Heaven and then all things
will be added unto you.’ Why don’t you do that?”
Stanley-Jones deciding that he was not receiving the reception that was his due as an important person, said,
“we have over-stayed our time.”The secretary bundled up her precious papers and
the party got up and left the Hall.
Bhagavan laughed after they had gone and remarked that I had certainly paid him back in his own coin.

Namaskar.

Nagaraj

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Re: Tolerance
« Reply #6 on: October 06, 2012, 01:01:19 PM »
Friends,
Truly nothing has happened and sometimes we need to call a spade a spade. :)

i think i resonate with your views.

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

atmavichar100

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Re: Tolerance
« Reply #7 on: October 06, 2012, 01:02:49 PM »
Mr.Nagaraj

As far as this forum goes we need to follow what Graham has laid out as the basic rules for this forum
   This is a  Forum dedicated to Arunachala and Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi.  That is the Sashtra  for this  forum and we need to respect that . Let us keep it quite simple with that .

Om Peace .
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Nagaraj

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Re: Tolerance
« Reply #8 on: October 06, 2012, 01:18:10 PM »
Mr.Nagaraj

As far as this forum goes we need to follow what Graham has laid out as the basic rules for this forum
   This is a  Forum dedicated to Arunachala and Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi.  That is the Sashtra  for this  forum and we need to respect that . Let us keep it quite simple with that .
Om Peace .

Mr. atmavichar100

I do not see myself contradicted.

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

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Re: Tolerance
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2012, 01:29:15 PM »
Krishna(Atmavichar)
" This is a  Forum dedicated to Arunachala and Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi.  That is the Sashtra  for this  forum and we need to respect that . Let us keep it quite simple with that "
Who is Bhagavan? :)
I do not run counter to what you have said ,yet thought I will share this.
I wrote to Graham clearly stating that I am devoted to all Great ones,and do not want to categorize myself as a 'Ramana Devotee' or a 'Ramakrishna Devotee' or a 'sai Devotee';if he is okay with this,he may enrol me.He did and I am here.
Did he make a mistake? :)
Namaskar.

atmavichar100

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Re: Tolerance
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2012, 01:38:04 PM »
Ravi , Nagaraj

I am not contradicting both of you .
I just want to bring back the focus to what Graham started this forum for . No doubt he has given lot of flexibility for us and we must respect that and not dilute that freedom in any way . We are enjoying today sharing in this forum because of his efforts .
So let us keep that basic spirit and Go ahead with our discussions as usual .
Om Peace .
« Last Edit: October 06, 2012, 01:48:09 PM by atmavichar100 »
However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them? - Buddha

Ravi.N

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Re: Tolerance
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2012, 01:48:01 PM »
Krishna,
I have posted in a lighter vein.As I said,nothing has truly happened to unduly worry us.
Namaskar.

Jewell

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Re: Tolerance
« Reply #12 on: October 07, 2012, 04:38:54 AM »
Dear Friends,

Regarding Your posts,and what happened in past few days,i wish to say,that in essence nothing truly bad happened. Like i see it,that is completely natural whenever this kind of thoughts exchange happens. We all have our opinions,way of thinking,nature,and this subjects are by itself like that,that now and then,we will disagree. What is important are tolerance and understanding,consideration and respect of all opinions,and most important,freedom to say our thoughts and express our views.

I can say from my own perspective,no matter how upset i can be in some moment,all this sharing is helping me to see some side of me,which is usually hidden. Like i love to say,ego in all its glory. Sometimes,it doasnt have anything with that,we get upset by some obvious attack,unplesant feelings or irriation from someone,but that is also natural too. We cannot like everyone,and not everyone can like us.(that doasnt mean we shouldnt be iritated.That is natural too,only what is important is our reaction on all that). How i see all this,sometimes we can be right,get some reactions,and then see our own reactions on that,so we learn. And other times,we can be wrong,and learn in the spot from that conversations. So,i think,if we are open,and honest to our selfs,we can learn much from this. I say to myself,it is only ego fighting,no harm done.(no matter how upseting is that sometimes for me,and how much i dont like it). All this is reflecting our inner fight,my thinking.

I believe that Bhagavan and Arunachala are Ever here,guiding us,and thats why we are drown to this forum.

I just wrote elaborat, :) but i wanted to share my thoughts on this.-like i like to share my thoughts on everything. :)

And,just to add,i think we shoulnt take anything personally,and be concentrated on views only,coz we truly dont know eachother,and the way i see it,every opinion about someone is probably wrong,coz we all look trough our own thinking and mind. I see that trough my own wrong conclusions sometimes. Sometimes i find something where there is not anything,only coz i expect that unconsciously. That sure cannot be true for everybody. This is my own thinking about this matters.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2012, 05:09:28 AM by Jewell »

Graham

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Re: Tolerance
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2012, 06:29:41 PM »
Dear All,

From the Vidya Gita of Sri Tripura Rahasya:

1-20. "I shall now relate to you an ancient sacred story. On one occasion very long ago there was a very distinguished gathering of holy saints collected in the abode of Brahma, the Creator, when a very subtle and sublime disputation took place. Among those present were Sanaka, Sananda, Sanatkumara and Sanatsujata, Vasishta, Pulastya, Pulaha, Kratu, Brighu, Atri, Angiras, Pracheta, Narada, Chyavana, Vamadeva, Visvamitra, Gautama, Suka, Parasara, Vyasa, Kanva, Kasyapa, Daksha, Sumanta, Sanka, Likhita, Devala and other celestial and royal sages. Each one of them spoke of his own system with courage and conviction and maintained that it was better than all the rest. But they could reach no conclusion and so asked Brahma: 'Lord! We are sages who know all about the world and beyond, but each one's way of life differs from that of the others because the dispositions of our minds differ. Some of us are always in Nirvikalpa Samadhi, some engaged in philosophical discussions, some sunk in devotion, some have taken to work, and others seem exactly like men of the world. Which is the best among us? Please tell us. We cannot decide ourselves because each thinks that his way is the best.'

"Thus requested, Brahma seeing their perplexity answered: 'Best of saints! I also would like to know. There is Parameswara who is the All-knower. Let us go and ask him.' Collecting Vishnu on their way, they went to Siva. There the leader of the deputation, Brahma, asked Siva about the matter. Having heard Brahma, Siva divined the mind of Brahma and understood that the rishis were wanting in confidence and so that any words of his would be useless. He then said to them, 'Hear me, Rishis! Neither do I clearly see which is the method. Let us meditate on the Goddess - Her Majesty Unconditioned Knowledge - we shall then be able to understand even the subtlest of truths by Her Grace.' On hearing these words of Siva, all of them, including Siva, Vishnu and Brahma, meditated on Her Divine Majesty, the Transcendental Consciousness pervading the three states of life (waking, dream and sleep). Thus invoked, She manifested in Her glory as the Transcendental Voice in the expanse of pure consciousness. ........


In the Uddhava Gita of Srimad Bhagavatham, Lord Krishna says:

“The three divisions of the Veda are really meant to convey the truth that Brahman, the Supreme Reality, is the Self of all. The Vedic texts say things which are not what they appear to be on the surface: they are thus most difficult to understand, being as vast and as unfathomable as the ocean. Presided over by Me, the infinite Brahman of infinite powers, the Veda is perceived by the wise as Anahata sound in all beings, like the fibre in a lotus stalk. The true meaning of what it reveals, explains, interrogates and refutes, is known to no one but Me.

---------------------------

My comment:

There are always going to be disputes, this is a fact of life.

Each of us has come by different routes to the spiritual path and each of us will have found some things beneficial and others not so beneficial. It is only upon reaching the final state that one is able to perceive unity in all.

Tolerance does not imply subservience but acceptance that there are differing views as to what is helpful and what is not, likewise each will interpret things according to their current mindset and the mind is the most devious of all things and even dangerous to sadhana at times.

I learned a long time ago not to trust the mind, because it has a habit of only seeing what it wants to see and becoming obsessed with words - this is the failing of the fanatic and the fundamentalist, who build a fortress of words without foundations.

Many years ago when first starting out I read all of the ashram publications and thought I knew everything, it was only later in the 1990's when I transferred them all to digital format and had to read every single word carefully, that I realised I had not actually read them at all properly. The mind had conveniently skipped over or forgotten that which it did not like.

As Lord Krishna stated above, there are hidden meanings in all scripture, including the teachings of the saints and sages. They are hidden for very good reason and when you do glimpse the hidden meanings the light of truth floods in and it is usually by accident or crisis that this truth and understanding dawns.

Friendly disputes can lead to greater understanding from within by forcing reflection upon otherwise rigid views.

Graham



Nagaraj

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Re: Tolerance
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2012, 07:14:01 PM »
Sri Graham,

Its a wonder in itself, how this incident from the Vidya Gita of Sri Tripura Rahasya, has been inspired and presented through you! Very true! Most appropriate post! This is a proof of the presence of Supreme Guru, here in this forum. Thank you!

with prayers,

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta