Author Topic: Madalasa Upadesha  (Read 27515 times)

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« Reply #30 on: April 08, 2009, 05:32:40 PM »
:) Yes there is no specific state to achieve or any transformation that happens to what one already is. What only happens is that in a white paper which has a lot of information written in it is erased out and what is left is the blank paper! Like, everybody says a Gold Chain, where as it is but just a Gold and chain is not something apart from it, the false attribute - Chain is just effaced. The Gold does not change because it is a Chain, the Gold only is.

Nagaraj
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Subramanian.R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 47994
    • View Profile
Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« Reply #31 on: April 08, 2009, 06:13:50 PM »
Sandhya Vandhana mantra says:

Asvadityo Brahmam Brahmaihvasmi.

I am like Aditya, which is Brahmam.  We are both Brahmam.  Then
what is that makes one believe that he cannot be Aditya or Brahmam.
It is the bulky dirt of ego.  When the ego is cleaned up, I, Aditya,
both of us are Brahmam.

Arunachala Siva.     

matthias

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 393
    • View Profile
Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« Reply #32 on: April 08, 2009, 06:47:10 PM »
dear udai

very nicely put...

everything as it appears is allready self liberated (all experiences) we just tent to belive in a riddle or puzzle reality....something we have to solve...but it is solved before the riddel idea comes into mind...


Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2009, 07:39:54 PM »
Dear Udai,

:) Yes, true even I agree with you that to see Gold one need not change the shape of the gold ring. Just one thing that we cannot see the Gold for we 'I 'outrselves are the Gold. There is nothing to see.

Nagaraj

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

matthias

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 393
    • View Profile
Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2009, 07:59:53 PM »
I think that the solving of the imagined riddle can just occur when we are neither identified with body nor thoughts....this does not mean that thoughts and body are vanishing...they are totally the same but free to do what they want

because as soon as this identification arises we are in need of a resolution, a teaching or an insight that brings us back into awareness or conciousness...

indeed a paradox....as awareness is the only thing that exists but we all make the experience of going "in" and "out" so this seems to be of some use.....I understand in this way: the fire of nondual awereness needs to be awekened by a teaching or grace and then it starts to burn everyting unnatural, conditioned....and in the end it burns even itself...

but before it would be pointless to say one is realized if the realisation is coming and going...if the flame doesnt finished its work so to say...

I wish that this flame will be nourished from all postings in this forum from everyone to everyone...





Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« Reply #35 on: April 09, 2009, 12:02:24 PM »
Dear Udai :)

I feel there is no seeing because 'to see' infers two. a Seer and the seen. Consciousness alone is. When we say whatever we see, that infers seeing consciousness. whereas when consciousness alone is what is there to see. there is no seer or seen in that consciousness.

A Seer exists because there is a Seen. The Seen exists because there is a seer! Seer and Seen are like the Past and the Future. When both past and future are not there, then alone there is the eternal Present!

There is no seeing at all. Seeing is illusion!

Sri Ramana says, there is no seeing as seeing is being. I always contemplated like this, I have 2 eyes, I see things, but can my 2 eyes be able to look at each other? what could happend if it is say possible? if both eyes of mine look at each other? will mu left eye look at my right eye? or wil my right eye look at my left eye? that implies there is only one real seer inside, eventhough we have 2 eyes! and this real seer is seeing because there is a seen! when there is no seen, no other eye, there is no seer as well.

Therefore when shankara said focus on centre of your nose, he actually meant the real internal seer, which is only one! He used the word focus seeing because for a student, there is a seen hence a seer exists only now because there is a seen, he sees a centre nose ,,, etc... then we will ralise there is no seen at all.

so only consciousness alone is. no seeing at all. Seeing is impossible!

Nagaraj
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 12:05:23 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« Reply #36 on: April 09, 2009, 03:17:23 PM »
Dear Udai,

:) that I don't know. Only He can tell us. I understand that He saw everyone in Himself. Everyone being Himself - Self, where could the possibility of seeing anything or anyone arise? so He would not see anything or anyone, He alone IS

Nagaraj
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 03:20:40 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« Reply #37 on: April 09, 2009, 04:34:39 PM »
Dear Udai,

:) you are talking about physical blindness. but the real seer is not the real eye. the eye is just an instrument like a video camera. really he did not require those physical eyes to 'see' Suppose let us assume Sri Ramana did not have eyes at all. Still how does it affect his glory? We may call him blind, but still how does it matter to Him? He still is a great Seer - Rishi.

Let us see it like this. Its true one sees only himself everywhere. I did not say just seeing is being, I said, in last stage, there is no seeing, as seeing is being - (quoted below by Bhagawan) There is no more seeing at all there. suppose one does not have eye sight? what does he see? Suppose one has eyes what still does he see? The physical eye is no more of any use. Infact there is no more physical eye as such even  thought one has them!

Bhagawan has said himself about this -

First One see's the Self as Object
Then One see's the Self as Void
and then One See's the Self as the Self
Only in the last there is no Seeing, as Seeing is being.

After the last stage onwards, seeing means being only. there is no seeing! only being. In the first 2 stages one See's Self as object and Void.  Therefore is seeing is still there that only means that the Self is seen as either as void or an object

Nagaraj
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« Reply #38 on: April 09, 2009, 06:45:45 PM »
Dear Udai :)

In your post,

Here it is 'you' or 'I' who is seeing Bhagawan not Bhagawan. It is 'you' or 'I' which is seeing how Bhgawan is putting food in his mouth. It is 'you' or 'I' who is analysing why Ramana does not put the food in the next persons mouth. For Bhagawan he is not putting food anywhere or is eating. It is 'you' or 'I' which is seeing.

There is still a seeing in 'you' and 'I'

If it is a mirage it does not exist at all to vanish. if the mirage does not vanish then illusion is still there. Mirage is never there. when you say mirage will not vanish, then it implies the mirage will exist. it has to be false. Mirage will not be there.

Nagaraj
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 06:47:54 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2009, 10:33:12 AM »
Dear Udai, :)

There is but only One Perspective. There cannot be another perspective at all. If there is another perspective, then it should be false. There is no Bhagawan's perspective or another perspective at all.

Bhagawan is not separate from us. Bhagawan is in us or we are all in Bhgawan. Infact nobody ever speaks to anyone or nobody ever sees anyone. there is only one alone. There is but only (one) Consciousness alone. There is no 2 separate consciousnesses.

If Mirage exists, then when you go nearer to the Mirage why does it disappear? It should still be there even when you go nearer to the water body which you saw at a distant! But there is no Mirage there!

Bhagawan said "I have no death" but He did not die. He is the consciousness in you. His is not a separate consciousness from yours. there is only One consciousness. Nothing is there to die. The Body was never born in first place to die. Its just a mass of flesh and bones! Do you think there is life for that body? When the Life force is only the Consciousness? So what has died? Nothing has died! What appears to be dead is like the Mirage, the Body, Infact the body is not there at all like the mirage, when you go nearer to the Mirage, it disappears but when you see at a distance the Mirage still exists. Similarly, it only appears that Maharshi died. The fact is nothing ever died. What is there separate from you to die? Its the same ONE consciousness alone that is there!

Bhagawan itself is only a thought in 'you' or 'I' What ever Bhagawan said is the same ONE consciousness you alone. It is your own consciousness   !

Thoughts, Talks, Mind, writing books are all only Mirages! Nobody talks, nobody writes, No mind, No Thoughts - These are all only Mirages, All we need to do is to go nearer and it does not even goes away but It is found NOT THERE at all, For it to go away it should exist in first place!. ! There is but Only ONE Consciousness alone.

There is no confusion here! That is how it is! It appears clear to me! Like we previously discussed in the "Why I cannot realize" - I am also only a thought to you. I am only a Mirage to you and vice versa. I am not there like the Mirage at all, and you are not there for me, you are only a mirage to me! All we need to is go go nearer and find that the Mirage did not exist at all! I have been your consciousness only. you are only my Consciousness! I am you, You am I

There is no Confusion here. It appears clear to me! We keep telling Bhagawan is in us, He is the COnsciousness in all us. There is no Bhagawan separate from us. He is the consciousness in I therefore I am HE, HE am I. i AM THAT CONSCIOUSNESS!

Nagaraj


« Last Edit: April 10, 2009, 10:35:04 AM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2009, 10:30:31 PM »
Dear Udai, :)

Let us delve further. What are thoughts and what is consciousness? There is a need to go deeper into this subject!

Thoughts are past and future. Consciousness is Present. For a person who thinks, he only thinks about his past or future, He can never be in the present. For the one whom there is no past of future, it implies no thoughts, is in the present or Consciousness. If there is thoughts, it is either only past or future, Future also is dabbling only with the past alone. whatever one thinks, is only this alone. If thinking stops, it only means The One is devoid of both past and future (this is what is called Ajaatavada, Birthless and Deathless, No past or Future) , that is to be in the Glorious Present. Also, we need to see that this "Present" is only there for a person who has Past and Future because the Consciousness does not have any moments at all. The Consciousness will not even bother that it is Present Moment. Only the person who has Past and Future will know what is present! The Self or Consciousness is devoid of past and future. It is absolutely pure.

Thoughts = Past and Future (Vasanas) Thoughts itself are Vasanas
Consciousness = Present (No Vasanas)

So if one is in present moment, he has no thoughts. If there are thoughts, then he is dabbling with this past and future. i.e. he is analysing, experiencing, tasting, enjoying, relishing by his own past. He recollects his past and remains in past, The present moment is lost, its not there.

So Consciousness is devoid of thoughts.

Thoughts are also like the mirage. when present is dawned, the thoughts disappear. or rather the are not there at all for its only a mirage Or even there is no finding at all! In present moment there are no thoughts!

Nagaraj
« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 01:10:44 AM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Matthew

  • Guest
Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2009, 10:51:19 PM »
Dear Nagraj,
              :) That is all right. There is no doubt in it that all is Consciousness.
That all is consciousness and everything is apparent dream like existence is a point of agreement between both of us. That you, i and everyone are only entities in the Dream of God and consciousness is God ... this too is totally agreed. There is no difference.
The only place i see a difference is when we say that self realization means the thoughts cease. This is not so.

Love!
Silence

Thought ceases when the body dies.  But all the sages report qualitative differences in their thought processes (i.e., thought would be much less active for them and only come into play when necessary). 

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« Reply #42 on: April 11, 2009, 12:04:46 AM »
Dear Matthew,

My contention is do the thoughts belong to the body? that it dies when the body dies? The body itself is only a thought and thoughts are illusion/mirage.

The sages don't tell anything in affirmative! They only show us the way, but they do not describe the state at all. ultimately we find that it is our Consciousness itself which is the Sage. This Sage alone IS.

Nagaraj
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

munagala

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 113
    • View Profile
Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« Reply #43 on: April 11, 2009, 08:20:29 AM »
Dear Nagaraj,

Whether the body is a thought or not is not going to help us in our sadhana.
The fact is that we live on the physical plane always except in sleep.

Munagala

Nagaraj

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5130
    • View Profile
Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« Reply #44 on: April 11, 2009, 09:43:28 AM »
Dear Munagala,

I am not telling anything new. Even the glorious Vedas and Upanishadas and teachings of Ramana echo this only. The Jagrit Swapna and Sushupti.  Sri Ramana himself told only the fourth i.e. Turiya alone is your nature!

The fact that we live in a physical plane itself is maya. There is no Physical Plane! Infact there are  no Planes at all! What is to "Live" what is "Living" ? Who is living ?

even the sleep that we normally have is also not the Turiya, If it is the reality, then why does one sleep (awake) again? Turiya is beyind this ! Understanding this is the Supreme Reality! It is the goal of any Sadhana. One has to really cross the ocean of samsara!

The Consciousness does not sleep at all! So who sleeps actually? Sleep only exists only when Jagrit Swapna Sushupti are there. In fact we are all only awakedly sleeping Dreaming (Jagrit Swapna Sushupti)!  we need to really wake up! wake up from the Jagrit Swapna and Sushupti! There is actually no awakening also, For the Consciousness is ever there - Turiya !   awakening is only for understanding for the person who is Sleeping!

"The fourth state is not that which is conscious of the subjective, nor that which is conscious of the objective, nor that which is conscious of both, nor that which is simple consciousness, nor that which is all-sentient mass, nor that which is all darkness. It is unseen, transcendent, the sole essence of the consciousness of self, the completion of the world."

- Mandukya Upanishad

Nagaraj

« Last Edit: April 11, 2009, 09:49:04 AM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta