Author Topic: Madalasa Upadesha  (Read 27781 times)

Nagaraj

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Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2009, 03:07:50 PM »
Dear Udai,

I believe Bhagawan did not at all require anything at all absolutely. Even food was only secondary to him. As he was a Guru and so many at his feet, he simply ate so that people don't begin to ape him. I have read in Talks where He sometimes, when he had just had his lunch, a big group would bring him food to eat, however since he could not say no because of their love, He ate another lunch, and sometimes 2 to 3 groups used to bring him something to eat and he did not refuse them because of their love. In spite that his stomach may be completely full!  On the other hand, on several occasions, he remained un eaten for several days. The best and most memorable example to cite is when he remained motionless in the Pathala Linga Shrine, No one knows how many weeks he remained there without food or even water.

He stuck to few norms because he did not want people to simply ape him, he lived among humans just like them, thats why he engaged in activities even though he did not have any requirement of it. He got up as early as 3 in the morning to cut vegetables and helped in cooking chores so that, people ape him in best of ways.

Yes the example is understood and it conveyed its point, it has no use beyond that, but the questions have not yet ended here. Questions will keep springing out till there are no more questions at all :) can't avoid that one. In every example a doubt is cleared but again a new question raises from the same answer till the clouds are cleared and the all glorious Sun alone is found itself pervading everything!

Nagaraj




« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 03:10:04 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2009, 04:29:10 PM »
Dear Udai,

I found that the question itself is an illusion :) ! And any answer to the question is an answer just to the question and not ME! I don't have any questions!  The question is like my reflection on the mirror - not real. It ends here. The questions are like the salt in the water. It gets dissolved in the water. I pray that I am like this always, to not get swayed by Maya!


॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2009, 05:01:36 PM »
Dear Udai,

You are very correct! There is nothing to think more! What from here? Is this That? - Is this to be just be

Nagaraj
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2009, 05:06:30 PM »
Dear Udai,

:) yes both are one and the same - Unreal. I meant any attempt, anything is unreal!

Nagaraj
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« Reply #19 on: April 06, 2009, 05:08:58 PM »
"Who is this", who is asking the question or typing here? Why am I wanting to know this 'Who is this', who is asking the question or typing here?"
« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 05:11:51 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2009, 07:49:08 PM »
Dear Udai,

By this, we understand about the Real and the Unreal. Yes the Unreal Ramana in the Screen releases us from the Unreal to the Real. This seems to be the end of knowledge. Once when this is understood, I presume by my understanding that one is released or freed or is a state of realised.  Once we have this understanding, we will not mind what ever is happening around us as there is no Self interest involved as everything is only a movie. I know all the people near me, my dear ones, friends and relatives are all only the characters in the movie. Shouldn't the movie end?

The movie was so long moving because we 'I' was playing the character because of Ignorance. But once when 'I' realised that it is not the character but just an illusion, shouldn't the movie end then and there? Its like, 'I' - Rope due to ignorence appeard or became the 'Snake' Then due to grace of something like Ramana in the movie tells us that I am not the Snake but the Rope. Now at this instance the illusion is wiped out. 'I' Know that I am not a Snake but 'I' am Rope (I = Rope) Why then does the movie continue? Like we are obliged to continue on our roles. Like the Rope after becoming aware that it is Not Snake continues to play the role of Snake. Are you getting what I am trying to tell?

Why does the Snake still continues to play the role? after being aware about its real nature - Rope! Should not the Snake disappear? This is the incompleteness in me.

Even after understanding that I am not the character in the movie, I am still watching the movie and I am obliged to continue performing the role I was performing due to ignorence. Why is this?

Nagaraj
« Last Edit: April 06, 2009, 07:51:31 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

silentgreen

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Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« Reply #21 on: April 06, 2009, 08:49:38 PM »
online shravana, inline manana and offline nididhyasana may help
(specially in this age).
Homage to the Universal Being...Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ... Om Shanti ...

Subramanian.R

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Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2009, 10:45:18 AM »
The world does not disappear.  It is still there but as Brahma Swarupa.

Arunachala Siva.

matthias

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Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2009, 01:51:32 PM »
there is something appearing right now, jet the scriptures say that there is nothing at all: but there is speach, mind, objects etc....

it is a paradox...it seems that on one side there is nothing...(like a naked unmanifested pure beeing) and on hte other is alot of stuff....(almost like trash covering the pure beeing)

in non dual schools like advaita vedanta...the sciptures tell us that this world is unreal ("like" a mirage), that the simple conciousness is real.....and then the last and most important statement: "the world is this conciousness"

"the world is unreal;
brahman alone is real;
the world is Brahman"

--ramana maharishi

and the appearing world will always be this conciousness...there is no gap, and therefor the samadhi is happening right now with open eyes, always

in dzogchen they say: everything as it appears sponteniously is perfectly liberated and empty....so absolutely no need to empty it, or liberate it (including body/mind)....it is not possible anyway, nobody can create reality...

Subramanian.R

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Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2009, 02:19:49 PM »
Dear matthias,

Excellent. 

The world is unreal - during seeking

Brahman alone is real - during seeking (again this is only a presumption with which one proceeds, because it is not yet experienced)

Brahman and the world is real - after realization.

Arunachala Siva.

matthias

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Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2009, 02:56:00 PM »
dear subramanian thank you or ramana for putting it so simple...I love this three lines very very much....they embody the whole advaita vedanta

what keeps us away from realisation? the wrong idea that this is not true...we do not believe in the great sages...on one side we love them and worship them, on the other side we do not believe in their words..

I think we have the idea-->
that there is brahman (sounds like an object for me), and that we have to realize brahman...in order to be liberated

but here ramana says it so clearly: the world is brahman....what is right now is brahman and this appearing moment is totally without any kind of objectivity....to devide this moment into "moment" and "witness of moment" is total senseless....

so there is not brahman (aham brahmasmi) on one side and the world on the other....there is no seperation between the witness of the moment and the moment...if there appears a difference then it is "seen" and therefor unreal and not the seer...

this is what you will find in all true non dual schools...no gap between world and self...not a non dual pure beeing and a false world, a mirage a dream.....it is on the contrary:
just an absolute pure world appearing nowhere, without cause or condition.....

and what appears as world is allways utterly pure and empty...perfect samadhi

nirvana is, but nobody to enter it --nagarjuna


matthias

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Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2009, 07:32:36 PM »
in addition:

I think I wrote someting that is not totally correct in my last post....

because both is real the nondual self and the world beeing this nondual self....

so you can say that there is a non dual world appearing nowhere

or you can say that there is a nondual self and the world appears with it (as an attribute of it)

or you can reject both as neither false nor true...

anyway what does it matter to know this? I guess that is why the buddha did not give precise instructions on the nature of reality....




Nagaraj

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Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2009, 10:09:30 PM »
In the context of the matter being discussed, I read this story given below somewhere -

Swami Vivekananda was known for his dogged determination and refusal to accept anything without empirical evidence, even in matters of spirituality. He approached various Gurus with this query, "have you seen God"? The answer was almost always negative, or if yes, a deeply shaky one ... which he could never digest. Ramakrishna Paramahamsa's bold and resounding yes prodded him to seek refuge and accept Him as his master. Even so, he put himself and his Guru through several tests, till the very end. One incident is noteworthy. Vivekananda once requested / was given a sample of the state of mind where he FELT HIMSELF to be the Brahman, pervading everything, contained in everything and yet beyond everything. This state of mind after a while made him restless and proved to be cumbersome to his everyday life. Even mundane chores like eating posed a threat to him ... after all, He Himself was the Eater, the Eaten, the very task of Eating all at once AND neither of it also, simultaneously. He then asked to be absolved of the responsibility of handling this state perpetually since it was hindering any form of activity. Legend has it that on his request, the experience ceased to be and went back to the state of mere awareness or knowledge.

This goes to prove that in THAT state, the movie does not continue as there is no movie separate or apart. Also, in the incident quoted above, Swami Vivekananda was only induced to THAT state from Sri Ramakrishna just to show him a glimpse of THAT state.

Nagaraj

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« Reply #28 on: April 08, 2009, 11:53:23 AM »
Dear Udai,

Here there is a beginning and an end because, Swami Vivekananda was only induced in to THAT state by Sri Ramakrishna. He was Given to have an experience of THAT state. Swami Vivekananda wanted to only experience THAT state. He wanted to know what THAT state is  like, He wanted to know, experience the ultimate STATE but he he had not become THAT state. Sri Ramakrishna was already in THAT state. Here Swami Vivekananda is like a person/Student who is yet to learn swimming but he wanted to know what swimming is even before he learnt to jump into the water. He was granted that STATE and Sri Ramakrishan got him out of THAT state, he did not come out of that experience.

Whereas Ramakrishna who is ever in THAT state has no beginning or and end. Like Ramana Maharshi, he said where can I go I am here only.

This was just a peek into the glory of Brahman not the Brahman itSelf. similarly its only a peek for us as well. We are also just in amoeba size just experiencing or knowing that STATE.
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« Reply #29 on: April 08, 2009, 12:23:27 PM »
Dear Udai,

:) Exactly, this is no different from a sensual experience. Everything is a sensual experience. THAT state is beyond experience itself. There is no experience at all for to experience, there has to be The Experiencer. Which is why I felt the Movie should not continue, if it continues, then thats is not the end, even if 'I' am aware that I am not the character, still if the movie continues, then 'I' am just awakened to the extent that the emotions of the character don't bother me. But if the character has to continue, then there is experienced object and experiencer but no experience because I know that I am not that.

Vivekananda in that example was in his early days, just like us now, a student. What we are all doing is only trying to experience THAT state, knowing THAT state. we all want to know that state. when Vivekananda was shown THAT state, he could not handle it as Experiencer was there. Here again Vivekananda became the character of a Jnani for sometime and when he was awakened he realized How 'He' or lesser 'I' cannot remain in that state and prayed to Ramakrishna to get him back to his earlier state. For Vivekananda, at this point, the movie still continued.

Nagaraj
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta