Author Topic: Important teachings of Tripura Rahasya  (Read 27331 times)

Nagaraj

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Re: Important teachings of Tripura Rahasya
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2012, 04:37:47 PM »
Being approached by the ascetic, the son of Kaheola replied with confidence:

I know it. Listen to what I say. There is nothing in the world not known to me. I have studied all the sacred literature with great care. Therefore hear my answer.

What you ask is the primal and efficient cause of the universe, being itself without beginning, middle or end, and unaffected by time and space. It is pure, unbroken, single Consciousness. The whole world is manifested in it like a city in a mirror. Such is that transcendental state. On realising it, one becomes immortal; there is no place for doubts and uncertainties, as there is none at the sight of a reflection in a mirror; there is no more reason for ignorance as at the sight of innumerable reflected images; and there will be no more room for desire, because transcendence is then experienced.

It is also unknowable because there is no one to know it, besides itself.

Ascetic! I have now told you the truth as contained in the scriptures.

After Ashtavakra had finished, the hermit spoke again:

Young Sage! What you say, is rightly said and accepted by all. But I draw your attention to that part of your answer where you admitted its unknowability for want of a knower outside of consciousness; and also that its knowledge confers immortality and perfection. How are these two statements to be reconciled? Either admit that consciousness is unknowable, is not known to you, and thus conclude its nonexistence; or say that it is, and that you know it — and therefore it is not unknowable.

You evidently speak from second-hand knowledge, gathered from the scriptures. Clearly, you have not realised it and so your knowledge is not personal.

Think now — your words amount to this: You have a personal knowledge of the images but not of the mirror. How can that be? Tell me now if you are not ashamed of this prevarication before King Janaka and his assembly.

Being thus reprimanded by the ascetic, he could not speak for some time because he felt mortified and ashamed; so he remained with bent head thinking it over.

[contd.]

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Important teachings of Tripura Rahasya
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2012, 04:51:33 PM »
Sri Udai,

I am not saying anything, it is all in Tripura Rahasya :)

what matters Udai? All that matters is truth, isn't it?

When we can use the aid of adhyAthma rAmAyaNa to vouchsafe the jnyAni status of Sri Rama, when Guru can say Prahllad had to meditate as Self in Yoga Vasishta to get enlightened, why not be open enough to see what this thread has to unfold? Truth only prevails!

D: There are various definitions of Bhakti.
G: There is only one: Self Abidance. No other definition.

D: What if a person does not know all these jnana terms and simply sits and prays.
G: If he abides as Self, knowingly then he is. Do you know the story of Prahallada from Yoga
     Vasishtam?

D: whats that ? Prahallada story is from bhagavatam.
G: Well After the story of bhagavatam , YV says, Prahallada had to meditate on that Vishnu as his own
     Self and only then he got liberated. Thats how he found true bhakti!

D: This is surely misinterpretation.
G: Then its done by Yoga Vasishta and not by me.

How can you say its unfair, Lets see what it says! What is there to gain or lose? :)

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Important teachings of Tripura Rahasya
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2012, 04:58:09 PM »
       :) its unfair to relate this to the Ashtavakra Gita event in Mahabharata. There is no mention of Ashtavakra Gita in this tripura rahasyam and moreover we do not see that janaka learns anything from ashtavakra :). There was a debate and then this lady comes and tells something to ashtavakra.

Anyone who has read Ashtavakra Gita properly knows it to be clearly the ultimate Truth.

Infact Ashtavakra Gita was probably not immediately after the debate. Debate was with vandin and the wiki page says :

"Later Aṣṭāvakra grew into a spiritually advanced rishi and self-realised atman. He went again to Mithila and instructed King Janaka about the Self. These teachings form the content of the Aṣṭāvakra Gītā or Aṣṭāvakra Saṃhitā as it is sometimes called."

I seldom depend upon wiki, but its important to note that Ashtavakra Gita is a Realized persons teachigns ... not a "Scholar's ramblings". Scholars cannot explain truth. And saying "I realized" does not necessarily mean a second person. That argument is also invalid. Its born out of confusion of relative [vyavaharika] and paramarthika.

Sri Udai, why so protective of Sage Ashtavakra? :) We all respect him, not like because of this, somebody is going to see him as lesser? Ashtavakra can stand for himself.

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Important teachings of Tripura Rahasya
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2012, 05:10:21 PM »
Dear Udai,

In the version from Tripura Rahasya, Ashtavakra learns about Truth from the Lady Hermit and then still being unclear, further gets clarified from Janaka Himself.

Instead of researching on his views on Ramana / whether he is arrogant or humble ...
if people had just learnt what he was teaching ... they would have realized the truth!!

people are more interested in things like what does he think about Ramana
why does he do this or that etc...
learn friends ... learn what he has to teach!
Then come back and tell me : This teaching is wrong for so and so reason!
Thats something !
to simply say "no he does not belong to our group" is silly!

The above quote of yours is your views on Swami Dayananda Saraswathi when some members felt some discomfiture over his comments on Ramana Maharshi. In the same spirit, why not, instead of researching if it occurred after Ashtavakra Gita or not, if people just focus on what is being presented by the great work of Tripura Rahasya, ... It would benefit well.

But, since, there is no details about whether this happens after Ashtavakra Gita, so I may not be factually correct, so as you say, i am ok with taking back my statement whether this occured after Ashtavakra Gita. but, in this version, the hermit begins to question Ashtavakra after his sermon on Truth.

:)

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Important teachings of Tripura Rahasya
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2012, 05:20:19 PM »
second... to say " i have realized" is not a contradiction. the statement is at relative , vyavaharika level and the liberation is Paramarthika. so a statement connecting the two is only for vyavaharika purpose. so that cannot be a valid argument.

Which Sage says so? vEda pramANA please?

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Important teachings of Tripura Rahasya
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2012, 05:28:33 PM »
Udai,

If you do not need vEda pramANA, then, what is the point in communicating? for what purpose? you openly declare your expression stand on your own authority. You position yourself above the vEda pramANA. I do not have anything more to convey.

:) I am the Self, Ramana said ... the moment he said that he should have become unrealized, isnt it ?

btw, can you please share the quotation where Bhagavan has said "I am Self" i am not aware, hence I am asking.

:)

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Important teachings of Tripura Rahasya
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2012, 05:49:08 PM »
Regarding Ramana's statement why dont you search out?

I say with my limited reading, Bhagavan has nowhere said "I am the Self" Please prove my understanding wrong.

         :) Pramana is there ... Veda pramana is not for everything. There are various kinds of pramanas. And you should know where veda pramanas are needed. Why should something thats clearly available for logic be given through veda pramana ? is not anumana pramana enough ?

You trust Logic? you trust anumAna? How can anumAna become pramANA :D please reflect, anumAna mean fyi - "Guess, Inference"

Anyways janaka also said it in Ashtavakra Gita.
Ramakrishna said it :) to vivekananda. He said I am Rama and Krishna !
and Buddha said it too :)

Kindly provide the instances to substantiate your expression.

:)

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Important teachings of Tripura Rahasya
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2012, 06:10:22 PM »
Dear Udai,

         :) you need some basics of pramana. I quote here from my topic on pramanas:

Quote
Some basic Technical Discussion: first a few definitions:
Pramana: Means of knowledge.
Prameya: The object of knowledge.
Prama: Knowledge
Pramatra: Knower.
...
We will discuss about pramana. When I see something and therefore know it, its called pratyaksha pramana ... it appeared before me as proof ;)

When I know about a thing, coz someone told me abt it ... that is paroksha pramana, known from someone else's explanation.

Please note that we are not discussing the validity of waht is known. we are just saying these are the ways to know.

then there is anumana pramana ... or inferential knowledge ... knowledge I gained out of inference... like : there is smoke , therefore there should be fire. meaning, the fire and smoke should always go together.

Our Scriptures are also pramanas[vedas are sabda pramana)... Means of knowledge. And what we know from them is of the following kind:

a) That which cannot be negated by other means of knowledge.
b) That which is not available through other means of knowledge alone.

This is the kind of knowledge that Scriptures present. When we expose ourselves to the scriptures ... they knock off all the wrong edges and like a sculptor sculpts a stone into a beautiful idol of Siva, the scriptures sculpt and leave us as Siva. That is why students of Vedanta are simply asked to study the scriptures and do some simple meditations to purify the mind so that they are able to see the truth expressed in scriptures. So Sravana, Hearing from a Teacher who has seen the Truth... then Manana ... Thinking about it for oneself and understanding it ... and then Nidhidhyasam ... or pure meditation on the teachings is suggested as the means to liberation.


Firstly, I do not know what source you are quoting? What credence does the above expression carries? Who has said these? If they are your expressions, how can they be vEda pramANA? Why are you expressing your anumANA pramANA to others, it is your personal thing, you have to continue with your sAdhanA with your anumAnAs.

Regarding references on janaka ... ashtavakra gita chapter 2.
regarding buddha : you can refer to buddhist scriptures as to waht he does after liberation. what does he talk to his friends.

regarding ramakrishna: you can refer net. Ramakrishna tells Vivekananda "I am Rama and Krishna" [not exact in language. he said in his local language.]

Buddha did not accept vEdAs as pramANAs at all, He neither acknowledged knowledge as well, what pramANA he could have said so? kindly substantiate.

You say, vaguely, Ramakrishna tells Vivekananda "I am Rama and Krishna" this is a classic example of anumAna Pramana, you vaguely remember some thing like this and take it as a pramANA. Here is where you need to dig deep and see what exactly Sri Ramakrishna has said so.

I did not find anything in the Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna as you have claimed, now only you have to substantiate your expression. I request you to kindly do so.

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Important teachings of Tripura Rahasya
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2012, 06:18:57 PM »
          :) The understanding about Pramana that I presented is standard. You should do your research.

What you express does not become standard Udai :) I will also say something and say it to be standard, what about it?

Regarding Buddha being not a vedantin I know that ... why are you telling me this? what do you want from that ?

I do not have any interest, please see your response some time back given below -


Regarding Ramana's statement why dont you search out?
Anyways janaka also said it in Ashtavakra Gita.
Ramakrishna said it :) to vivekananda. He said I am Rama and Krishna ! and Buddha said it too :)


So I asked where did Buddha say so? :)

and Sri Ramakrishna told Vivekananda :) Plz refer their biography.

nope, i referred, and did not find so!

« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 06:21:23 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Graham

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Re: Important teachings of Tripura Rahasya
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2012, 06:33:11 PM »
Foreword to Sri Tripura Rahasya

Tripura Rahasya was considered by Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi as one of the greatest works that expounded advaita philosophy. He often quoted from it and regretted that it was not available in English. As a consequence Sri Munagala Venkataramaiah (now Swami Ramanananda Saraswathi) took up the work of translation in 1936 as another labour of love, adding just one more English translation to his already extensive store. This was first published in parts in the Bangalore Mythic Society's Journal (Quarterly) from January 1938 to April 1940 and afterwards collected into book form, of which five hundred copies were printed and privately circulated. The Asramam has since taken over the copyright and made it one of their official publications.

The work originally in Sanskrit is widely known in India and has been translated into a number of local languages, but I do not know of any previous translation in English. It is regarded as one of the chief text-books on Advaita, the reading of which alone is sufficient for Salvation. Sri Ananda Coomaraswami quotes from it with appreciation in his book, "Am l My Brother's Keeper?"

I for one much appreciate the present translation which will now be easily available for all who know English. Sri Ramanananda Saraswathi has put us under a great obligation by his painstaking work. It will surely be a gratification to him to know that his labour of love has at last found a permanent abiding-place and will not be lost to future generations, for many of whom it must become a spiritual text book.

SADHU ARUNACHALA
(Major A. W. Chadwick, O. B. E.)

----------------

Sri Ramanananda Saraswathi always checked everything with Bhagavan, so you can be certain that the translation is correct.

I too was puzzled by the references to Janaka and Ashtavakra, having read the Ashtavakra Gita previously.

The question arises is this the same Ashtavakra or the same Janaka in both books. We do not know.

Graham

Nagaraj

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Re: Important teachings of Tripura Rahasya
« Reply #25 on: December 05, 2012, 06:36:24 PM »
       :) did I say its true coz i say so ? I just said you can do your research. You can listen to Paramarthananda ji's lectures on pramanas if you want to.

You are potentially sending out wrong information, wrong knowledge and have a great potential to misguide others, This attitude to say that others can research is not a hallmark of good sAdhakA. Everybody does research, that is different matter. having said and expressed so many things, you cannot be so evasive and tell finally, that what you say is true and be irresponsible to what you have been expressing, and then when it comes to accountability, it is not nice conduct to say listen to Paramarthananda Ji's lectures and all.

That Buddha said it is in buddhist scriptures for sure :D LOL! Where else will it be.

Great comedy haha  :o

Regarding Sri Ramakrishna you can refer:
http://www.ramakrishnavivekananda.info/gospel/introduction/last_days.htm
:) I got it in my first search :)

Please read it:

Sri Ramakrishna said to him: "Today I have given you my all and I am now only a poor fakir, possessing nothing. By this power you will do immense good in the world, and not until it is accomplished will you return." Henceforth the Master lived in the disciple.

Doubt, however, dies hard. After one or two days Narendra said to himself, "If in the midst of this racking physical pain he declares his Godhead, then only shall I accept him as an Incarnation of God." He was alone by the bedside of the Master. It was a passing thought, but the Master smiled. Gathering his remaining strength, he distinctly said, "He who was Rama and Krishna is now, in this body, Ramakrishna — but not in your Vedantic sense." Narendra was stricken with shame.

He did not say I am Rama and Krishna. and there is difference between what is actually quoted in the above source "He who was Rama and Krishna is now, in this body, Ramakrishna — but not in your Vedantic sense."

Please re-read once again and discern.

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Important teachings of Tripura Rahasya
« Reply #26 on: December 05, 2012, 06:39:21 PM »
Thanks for your clarifications Sri Graham,

It is unknown, if it is the same Ashtavakra or the same Janaka in both books. However In this version [Tripura Rahasya] it is clear though that Ashtavakra learns further from the Lady Hermit and thereafter from King Janaka Himself.

Infact, when the Lady Hermit speaks about the Truth, King Janaka was was able to grasp the Truth from Her but Ashtavakra still had doubts, for which King Janaka finally clarifies.

« Last Edit: December 05, 2012, 06:52:16 PM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Important teachings of Tripura Rahasya
« Reply #27 on: December 05, 2012, 07:32:25 PM »
Nagaraj, you better inquire if this is with a well meaning intention.
I will not continue this discussion anymore.

Dear Friend, the vEdic etiquette while discussion, tarka shAstra is to quote the vEda pramANa in its own words, but unfortunately you re-interpret and present it as your own. That is the point of focus! By the way, this whole discussion was not even about pramANA at all, if you closely see.

See so many instances, when you had min-interpreted the words of saints for proving your own point? This is unethical!

Who will deny the words of kAnci paramAcAryA? He is a pontiff and is a jagadhguru, master of shAsthrAs. But we should know how much we can convey on our own. Had you quoted the words of True Sage like these in various instances, alol these would not have transpired. But, you want to present the truth in your own words, that is the basic point, for your information. Kindly Introspect about these in your break!

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Nagaraj

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Re: Important teachings of Tripura Rahasya
« Reply #28 on: December 05, 2012, 07:41:14 PM »
I thought you are not going to continue this discussion anymore :)

      :) You have surely not read the bhasyas. Anumana as pramana is used where it can be used very clearly. Why are you again and again saying I am being unethical etc ?

I am really surprised that no other forum member feels this as incorrect !!

Dear Udai :) I may have not read those Bhashyas, anumAna pramAnAs etc... but i certainly do know how much I can convey! Please take break, i still do not have anything personal against you, we have had long discussions in the past as well :) you are missing one golden point from within. That is all i am saying.

I never denied your pointers, they are all good, but, it is just missing on something very basic that is very essential.

God Bless us all! We are all in the same journey.

with prayers,

॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Ravi.N

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Re: Important teachings of Tripura Rahasya
« Reply #29 on: December 05, 2012, 10:01:51 PM »
Friends,
This is what Sri Ramakrishna has said regarding Prahlada:

Different classes of men

"All men are by no means on the same level. It is said that there are four classes of men: the bound, the struggling, the liberated, and the ever-free. It is also not a fact that all men have to practise spiritual discipline. There are the ever-free and those who achieve perfection through spiritual discipline. Some realize God after much spiritual austerity, and some are perfect from their very birth. Prahlada is an example of the ever-free.
"Eternally perfect sages like Prahlada also practise meditation and prayer. But they have realized the fruit, God-vision, even before their spiritual practice. They are like gourds and pumpkins, which grow fruit first and then flowers.

It is better to go by what Srimad Bhagavatham says about Prahlada than to refer to Yoga vasishta.It is better to rely on what Sri Ramakrishna says than to trust our anumana,etc.
The Basic problem with people who carry a load of scriptural knowledge is that they are not prepared to disinvest!They would rather like to see Prahlada also as a novice whose Bhakti did not give him Self Realization and that he had to follow the Path of jnAna to arrive at Self Realization!What to do! :)
Namaskar.