Author Topic: HOW CAN THE SELF BE BEYOND TIME ?  (Read 4262 times)

mick hutchinson

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HOW CAN THE SELF BE BEYOND TIME ?
« on: June 02, 2008, 02:29:42 AM »
HOW CAN [SAMADHI] SELF BE BEYOND TIME ?
Maybe this is the answer .
Time is change.
Without change there is no time.
Therefore what changes is subject to time
But for THAT which does not change, there is no time.
This seems to resolve the apparent paradox that time stops in Samadhi.

Subramanian.R

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Re: HOW CAN THE SELF BE BEYOND TIME ?
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2008, 07:15:02 PM »
In samadhi state, one is Brahman and since Brahman is everything,
it includes both time and space.  In his Tamil poem, He says:
"Naan indri, naL edhu?, Nadu edhu?, meaning that " without me,
where is space? where is time?."  There is an Einstein quote, where
he says:  " I want to know only God's thoughts.  Every other thing are
details."   

mick hutchinson

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Re: HOW CAN THE SELF BE BEYOND TIME ?
« Reply #2 on: June 08, 2008, 03:08:17 AM »
Is awareness of the cosmic mind below Samadhi ,because there has to an" I " to know it ?

Subramanian.R

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Re: HOW CAN THE SELF BE BEYOND TIME ?
« Reply #3 on: June 08, 2008, 11:55:45 AM »
Dear mick, I think, I am not sure, cosmic mind is Samadhi, that is
Sahaja-Samadhi, where Bhagavan lives, 'thinks and acts'.   This explains how He went to Tiruvottiyur, a place about 200 km from Tiruvannamalai, and placed His hands on the head of Kavyakanta, who was meditating
in a Ganesa Temple and started experiencing unbearable burning sensation on his head, due to rise of the yogic-fire ("kundalini").  On
Bhagavan's touch, the fire subsided.   

gorak

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Re: HOW CAN THE SELF BE BEYOND TIME ?
« Reply #4 on: July 07, 2008, 01:07:47 PM »
This is an interesting question...Adi Shankara has talked at length about this in Advaitha Vedantha. In samadhi state your mind ceases to work. You are in a thoughtless state. In fact it is not even worth calling it a state of mind, because mind ceases to exist in this "whatever". I cannot explain it in words that's why I put "whatever". I strongly believe that no matter how hard we try, the theory of god can never be explained in words. It has to be felt. Since there are no thought waves while in samadhi, there is no time and no space. Remember time and space are just perceptions of our mind. If your mind believes that an object exists, then it does, otherwise it does not. This particular phenomenon is also explained in the movie called "The Matrix". Pretty interesting, that our vedic gurus have talked about this thousands of years ago.

Brahman is beyond mind. Our mind just sees the maya (the perception of the Universe) created by Brahman, and does not see the truth behind it. This is why it's very much absurd to talk about time and space while in samadhi. The ultimate goal of mankind is to merge with the ocean called "Brahman". Brahman is timeless, spaceless, cannot be destroyed, cannot be created, cannot be changed, and so on.

Subramanian.R

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Re: HOW CAN THE SELF BE BEYOND TIME ?
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2008, 01:25:48 PM »
Dear 'gorak', I agree that the samadhi is a state, where there is no mind and there is no time and space, since these two are conceptions of the mind.  The question naturally arises, how then Sankara wrote all his works, debated with persons following other sub-vedic faiths like" karma kanda" etc.  How then Bhagavan composed all His works, talked to people etc.,  The samadhi again is said to be of various types, one which without body, another  with and without body etc.,  Kindly see Ribhu Gita.  Bhagavan's state is Sahaja Samadhi, in which He lived for 54 years, talked, composed etc., This is where He was living as if one is in a dream.  In such a long dream, he did all the work, as we cry, laugh, eat and talk to people in our 'ordinary dreams.'  This is the state in which all the Self realized people did their wordly work, be it Janaka, Sankara, Jnana Sambandha or Bhagavan Ramana Maharshi.

Arunachala Siva.     

gorak

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Re: HOW CAN THE SELF BE BEYOND TIME ?
« Reply #6 on: July 07, 2008, 02:19:33 PM »
Siva, again you put another beautiful dimension to the same question. IMHO Adi Shankara might not have been able to put his complete feelings/leanings about Brahman in words as exactly what he experienced. It is at one's discretion (the mind) that one either accepts or neglects another person's experiences. The biggest hindrance to understanding god is "Maya". Now in order to experience the truth about god, we need to overcome this Maya, but unfortunately we are inside it. So it becomes a chicken-egg problem. This is where the true masters like Bhagawan, Shankara and others have devised methods to help us come out of this ignorance called Maya. We have to use maya by itself to come out of Maya. The techniques we use today like, meditation, yoga etc are all methods to overcome this maya. Again you see that these are wordly methods. These methods are required only for people who exist in this world with physical body and is not needed for people who have attained enligtenment.

Every person who experiences god has the same feeling of enlightenment, but unfortunately when they start to put that in words, problems tend to arise. I personally think this is the one thing that creates a lot of indifferences in this world, for example religion. Every religion conveys the same thing, which is "God is One", but when we start to put that in words, people start to interpret it differently. The Hindu religion by itself talks about two different sects of people who believe in Dwaitha and Advaitha. Great saints like Madhavacharya and Adi Shankar would have had the same feeling when they experienced god, but when it was written on paper, the message delivered was completely different (or at the very least we interpreted it differently :-)). The best way to understand God is to become itself. No matter how hard we try we cannot learn about god by reading books/teachings. Teachings and preachings can only mature our thoughts about god, but it will not help us attain enlightenment. As Bhagawan rightly siad, if one wants to know god, then know thyself, and that initiative should come from inside.

Subramanian.R

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Re: HOW CAN THE SELF BE BEYOND TIME ?
« Reply #7 on: July 07, 2008, 04:29:29 PM »
Dear gorak, your questions will take at least 5000 words to answer.  I shall briefly tell, to the extent, I know.

There are several concepts.  "Maya" is prikriti or Sakti or all the singing and crying and dancing of this world.  But 'maya' is co-existent with Purusha or the Self or Brahman.  To merge in the Self, the people in the world have to overcome this 'maya lila'.

Why Sankara, Ramanuja, Madhva and Bhagavan write all these works and spoke all these words.  The answer would be that they came down from the Pure Consciousness to tell people.  If all the self-realized persons decide not to speak or write or even to live, then how can we poor fellows understand anything about Brahman or the ways to merge in the Self.  Hence those elders came down from the state of Pure Consciousness, to do all these things.  Bhagavan used the word "Suddha-manas" or "Pure mind" to explain these things.  With pure mind, these great teachers spoke and taught the way.

Again, why different ways of teaching?  Sankara felt that merging in the Self is the highest goal.  He also wrote so many bhakti poems, for the sake of less evolved people.  Ramanuja said that even though Brahman is the one without second, the devotees would like to enjoy the bliss of Brahman from a distance!  It is like looking at sugar candy and appreciating it without eating it.  He said at the time of great dissolution, these devotees would merge in Brahman, that is, candy will be given after mother finished her work.   The Saiva Siddhanta is very close to Ramanuja's idea, the qualified non-dualism, Visishtadvaitam.  But they say that the devotees would enjoy Siva and merge in Brahman after dissolution.  The god-in-the-near, became a big problem and this gave a shift from philosophy to religion.  There came Vaishnavites, Saivites, Sakti-worshippers, Sun-worshippers, Skanda-worshippers and Ganapati-worshippers.  In fact, Sankara himself, gave these 6 paths in his times.

Madhva who came as the latest said that there is no merging business, the jiva or the devotee should remain ever as servants of Narayana or Krishna and jiva can never become one with the Brahman. 

The fun is everyone has interpreted upanishads, gita and brahma sutra, the same stuff, in different ways!

Then came, further schools.  Vallabhacharya's Krishna-Advaita, Nimbarkar and others. 

Within Vaishanvism, came again two big branches.  The southern sect and the northern sect.  The southern sect said that Tamil and Tamil songs of (4000 verses) devotees are more superior to Vedas, while the northern sect thought Veda is supreme.  The fight came to such an extent, they had two different types of 'marks' on their foreheads!  The one is called U type and the other is called Y type.

Brahman (sorry for the expression) must be 'laughing' to his heart's content,  I mean, if he has got a heart and a mouth.

Arunachala Siva.