Author Topic: The Mind is the Bull  (Read 5789 times)

Subramanian.R

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The Mind is the Bull
« on: February 15, 2009, 01:06:42 PM »
A group of people came on a visit to Bhagavan Ramana. One of them
asked: "How can I keep my mind aright?"

Bhagavan Ramana: " A refractory bull is lured to the stall by means of grass.  Similarly, the mind must be lured by good thoughts."

Devotee:  "But it does not remain steady."

Bhagavan:  "The bull accustomed to stray takes delight in going astray. However, he must be lured with luscious grass to the stall.  Even so, he will continue to trespass into the neighbour's fields.  He must gradually be made to realize that the same kind of grass can be had in his own place.  After a time, he will remain in the stall without straying.  Later a time will come when, even if driven out of the stall, he will return to the stall without going into the neighbouring fields. So also the mind must be trained to take to right ways.  It will gradually grow accustomed to good ways and will not run return to the wrong ways.

Devotee: "What are the good ways to be shown to the mind?"

Bhagavan: "Thought of God."

(Source: Talks, 22nd October 1938)

Arunachala Siva.   

munagala

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Re: The Mind is the Bull
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2009, 03:27:42 PM »
Nice example.

swami vivekananda compares the mind to a monkey, consumed with alcohol and bitten by a scorpion.

Just a thought.

REgards,
Sambu

soham3

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Re: The Mind is the Bull
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2009, 03:54:43 PM »
This bull is to be metamorphosed into a docile dog.
O Divine, lead me to dizzy heights of sublimity & loftiness

matthias

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Re: The Mind is the Bull
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2009, 12:10:10 PM »
dear skrudai...

in your last posts I see a strong nihilistic attidute towards this reality....please do not fall into the extrem clinging towards the absolut, towards light and enlightment...I do not know you personally so I can not judge you and how you are..so maybe my concenrs are totally useless but I wanted to let you know how I think and feel...

I just wanted to remind you that this world is not an illusion, it is "like" an illusion.

there is the absolute and there is the relative (traditional advaita is ignoring the relative, but Iam sceptical about this aproach)....the I and the thoughts do have power, the "ingoring" of this powers is an act of violence against oneself and also others...in my eyes! When you just cling towards the non-dual ever-present witness then youre mind will not funtion free...because I do not feel you to be totally free of the ego...and it is about beeing free of the clinging towards light and towards shadow....this is not achieved (again this is my attitude) with simply ignoring the relative and exalting the other extrem...

I had my first mahamudra meditaiton sitting yesterday and a core sentence was that it is about moving free between nirvana and samasara and not about resting in nirvana...this is a nihilistic attitude.

I hope you undestand and you always can proofe me wrong an what I say, I have a deep respect for your wods and wisdome and Iam akways delighted to read your posts

love
matthias

matthias

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Re: The Mind is the Bull
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2009, 03:23:29 PM »
dear Skrudai

I see your points, I guess it was about words and meanings of words, that made me think about the posts...

I think you are correct in what you explained here to me and I can agree..

there was one thing I would like to talk about:

mind is never happy with what it gets...this is the seeking mind...the mind that wants something and goes out to get it am I right? It is a state of mind....we know all to well, but without this state where would this world be?

desire is a ground motivation of maya or relative reality.....and it is alife in all of us....we would not exist without it, noit even the saints would wander the planet if life itself would not desire to be alife....desire is a very important fact of gods creation..

Our sadhana is also means to give te things the right place...and desire has a place in our society....it is an important factor...when it is healthy no problem..

non seeking mind...the mind htat is at rest and happy with the mind is resting as the self...it is nothing but another state of mind...not even a better one...having no desire is not better then having desire....

mind that seeks things is not superior then mind that is non-seeking (mind at peace)...who is to judge between them?

we both know that it is about switching freely undisturbed between mind sets or mind states...our true self is not limited to anything or disturbed by any mind set....

Ganesh_b01

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Re: The Mind is the Bull
« Reply #5 on: February 16, 2009, 03:34:58 PM »
Dear all, :)

I created 4 videos and posted them on Youtube, I thought it would be beneficial for all of you. Here are the links:

1.     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsnJqAq-Rqc[/url]

2.     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUBY_hIgzrk

3.     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpppWd4cq5Y

4.     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qG1qn8f2go

Thank you

Subramanian.R

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Re: The Mind is the Bull
« Reply #6 on: February 16, 2009, 03:37:28 PM »
Dear matthias,

I saw your posts and srkudai's posts.  I would only like to share
the ideas regarding mind.  First comes first.  Desiring the Self is the
only thing that the aspirant or seeker should have.  Other desires
in the objective reality, happen according to one's prarabdha.  Jnanis live their lives, desiring the Self ever and leaving the other desires to the prarabdha.  Such desires cannot be avoided be it a Jnani or an
ordinary mortal.

Then, the question arises about the 'mind' aspect.  Once a Jnani
permanently fixes his egoistic mind in the Self, it is the Self which is doing everything in the objective world.  Or we can call it, it is the
Suddha Manas or Pure Mind which is doing everything in the objective world.

For example, Bhagavan Ramana used to have betel leaves and nuts for some years.  He had even tasted Ganja (cannabis) once or twice.  One day He enjoyed the vegetables + curd preparation, with coconut oil, it is called Aviyal in Tamil, so much that He asked for a second helping!  For the same reason, He did not object to the petty picadillos of His various devotees.  Some used to take tobacco snuff, some would constantly chew betel leaves, nuts and tobacco leaves, some would go for pilgrimage all over the country, some would write lots of poetry, some would sing melodious songs, some would ask for an extra cup of coffee, etc., etc.,  Only Ganja, He told them not to have, because it gives false sense of bliss and is a terrible addiction.  The false sense of bliss would be mistaken for the Self, just as people today think that they can write e-posts in various blogs and attain the e-Self!

Arunachala Siva.        

Ganesh_b01

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Re: The Mind is the Bull
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2009, 03:47:59 PM »
It has also been mentioned in the Srimad Bhagawatam also. Veda Vyasa says that there are a lot of ways by which one can experience the bliss by means of Intoxications and others but when it is realised through means of Yoga and Bhakti it lasts permanently.

A Jnaani is beyond anything. One very orthodox Brahman came to visit Shirdi Sai Baba and found him eating raw onions and was shocked seeing him eat onions. Baba could read his thoughts and said to him that one who can digest onions can eat them i.e. a Jnaani is beyond the effects of onions and the effects of onions dont trouble a Jnaani. But for us who are striving to reach Brahman should take care in our food habits and consume only satvic foods so as to develop a spiritual mind.

Once when the ego 'I' is able to atleast see the state of Brahman or atleast have a feel of that state. It is like a Honey bee trapped inside a Glass bottle and struggling to free itself outside the non-existing glass. once this glass is broken the ego 'I' merges with the all pervading Brahman.

soham3

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Re: The Mind is the Bull
« Reply #8 on: February 16, 2009, 06:10:26 PM »
As per Advaita theory, world was never created. It appears to ignorant eyes of foolish mind.
O Divine, lead me to dizzy heights of sublimity & loftiness

Ganesh_b01

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Re: The Mind is the Bull
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2009, 06:48:43 PM »
Just my thoughts:

To whom are we trying to discuss here about any topic? who is actually listenning? and for what purpose are we actually taking all efforts to write whatever we want to share? Really to whom are we sharing anything? we believe that some one is reading what we write. actually where is that thought? it is all in the false 'I'

In reality 2 people cannot meet anywhere at all. what ever I try to communicate - its all only based on my thoughts alone and my past experiences alone. and what ever another would understand is also based only on his thoughts and experiences alone. In one way its just a game that we are all playing here. 'The I' here is nothing but absolutely all thoughts alone - all the experiences. When we were born as a baby we did not know anything. we dint have any thoughts a baby is blank. when it is born, first the mother introduces herself to the baby - here first thoughts are born - the morther is born, then she introduces to the father - father is born and so on. then the grandmother tells the baby that the sky is blue! in reality what is blue? can anyone know what is blue? we are all just repeating what ever we have listened to so long till even now. Nothing is actually ours. can there be anything mine when everything what ever we know, think, do are all imitations. nothing original.! just some how if these imitations could just dissolve, then what would remain is all consciousness, awareness. what ever we may call it. even the term consciousness, awareness used only by others and not by the pure 'I'

we only know what is birth and death by seeing others. We dont know them ourselves. when we see a baby is born we think that a baby is born and when a person dies, we think that is what is dying! but we can never know when exactly we were born and when exactly we die. because we can never experience both because of absence of thougts. we are never born or ever died. we cannot howmuch ever possible know our own birth or death. what we know about them is only what we have heard.

we are all nothing but 'thought' 'ideas' alone. when what is called death experience occurs, these thoughts gets flushed out and what remains is a natural consciousness awareness untouched by any ideas thoughts or anything.

rest in next.

Thank you

vinita

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Re: The Mind is the Bull
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2009, 09:18:05 PM »
"we are all nothing but 'thought' 'ideas' alone. when what is called death experience occurs, these thoughts gets flushed out and what remains is a natural consciousness awareness untouched by any ideas thoughts or anything".

Not having experienced a thoughtless state, or a deathlike state, "natural consciousness / awareness" also remains just a thought....for me.

vinita

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Re: The Mind is the Bull
« Reply #11 on: February 16, 2009, 09:31:05 PM »
dear ganesh,

the videos are beautiful. i liked the shivoham video particularly....also because u had translatead the lyrics. the words of Shankacharya are immortal. Have u heard Pt. Jasraj's redition of this?

There is something about Shunya / Nothingness that is very powerful and appealing, conceptually. It gives a mightly tug somewhere....

how to experience it is the question. ???

best wishes!


Ganesh_b01

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Re: The Mind is the Bull
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2009, 10:46:54 PM »
Dear Vinita,

I am really happy that you liked the videos. Yes the words of Shankaracharya are so beautiful and I believe that Sri Ramana Maharshi is truly an incarnation of Adi Shankaracharya himself. At a time when so many complications have creaped in spirituality. So many interpretations by so many various different people from various backgrounds. Actually Shankarachaya himself incarnated in a similar situation when Hinduism was in decline. Similarly, Ramana Maharshi has also appeared at a time when deep spirituality today comes with a cost. Spirituality has become a big business these days. Ramana Maharshi simply made it so simple and yet so effective.

To your first reply:

What you say is true - "Not having experienced a thoughtless state, or a deathlike state, "natural consciousness / awareness" also remains just a thought....for me."

As long as you - false 'I' is there so long it will be just a thought to you. This very thing is verily a thought only? what else is it?

You will not be there to experience that thoughtless state or deathlike state? I hope you are getting my point - thoughts are there as long as there is some thinker. Death experience is the death of the thinker.

The fact is We cannot experience that state at all. Just not possible. thats what the Upanishats say. It cannot be know by our indriyas. it is beyond everything. It alone is.

Reality is even the so called Divine experiences are also thought induced only because we are experiencing that divine feeling. If we are able to say its a divine feeling then we know about that feeling beforehand. We have either heard it before or read it before somewhere. Still the experiencer is there. So that state should be beyond the Experiencer itself.

I am really not eligible to make the statement I am going to make below, but I would like to share it as well: State of realisation is not some thing to reach or get or does it come to us. We are all already realised. This whole exercise to realise self is actually futile. Can we look back side of our heads by ourselves? It like trying to find your ownself everywhere when you yourself are searching.!

We are all just playing games, really searching Self should not become some sort of entertainment to us you know. I hope you are getting my point. Its actually very exciting, you know its mysterious, surprising etc... we should not get caught in these exciting stuffs.

Sri Ramana Maharshi has said the best course is to be quite, silent. So even the very aspect of searching for Self is futile! it will only engage the Ego or the false 'I' Because the false 'I' never wants to die. It wants to continuity. It wants to live on. It wants to keep thinking, the thoughts are so dear to it. It fears itself to get into the thoughtless state. It does not want to die. The thoughts 'I' does not want to die.

Ganesh_b01

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Re: The Mind is the Bull
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2009, 11:16:48 PM »
Dear Vinita

Shunya / Nothingness is the same state what we call Brahman.

In a glass filled with water exactly Half the quantity, One says its Half empty and the other says its Half full. Thats all is the difference between Shunya / Nothingness or Brahman / Everythingness

in Both states the is no thoughts or you 'I'  (By you, I mean thoughts again) we are all nothing but a basket of thoughts.

Regards,

Subramanian.R

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Re: The Mind is the Bull
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2009, 11:47:57 AM »
Dear Ganesh_b01,

One can look at these writing of posts/sharing thoughts/advising
others/seeking advices in many ways.

1. One is mental-masturbation.  This, most of us are doing.

2. The second is:  I had undergone this tribulation and I had
such an advice from someone.  So, when anther is having same
tribulation, I shall say this to him.  For example, in villages, we
have seen when one is suffering from acute stomach ache, neighbours would give different advices.  One would say, try this
herb.  Another would say, 'Simply fast.'.  A third one would say,
"Pray to such and such god."  Why, because each one has worked
in their lives!

3.  The third is abhara-karuna, great compassion towards others.
This is what great persons like Bhagavan Ramana have done.  They
had infinite compassion, and out of compassion they prescribed
certain things to others.  God is also of infinite compassion.  Saint
Manikkavachagar says in Tiruvachakam:  "O You are like my mother,who gives her breast, even when child does not know that he is hungry.  If you do not give, I shall suffer like a 'savalai'* baby.
I am lowlier than the lowly dog, and you have graced me without
asking.  You are greater than mother!"

(* savalai, is the first child which is denied mother's milk, because the second child is born to his mother and she cannot give breast milk to the first child.)

Arunachala Siva.