Author Topic: Free Will and Destiny  (Read 5648 times)

prasanth_ramana_maharshi

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #60 on: March 30, 2012, 05:34:28 PM »
Dear Raviji,

A very warm welcome sir.
ఓం  నమో  భగవతే  శ్రీ  రమణాయ   
ప్రశాంత్  జలసూత్రం
ప్రేమే శాశ్వతము

Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2012, 07:43:28 AM »
R.Subramanian/nonduel/prasanth,
Namaskar and thanks very much.I have had an opportunity to interact with or atleast receive messages from each one of you!I recall the earlier exchange with our friend nonduel in David's blog-How I used to address him as 'nondual' and he clarified to me that it is 'nonduel' (French)!
I received some mail forwards  that originated from prasanth! -gems from Sri Bhagavan.I always enjoyed the brief,crisp message.
Prasanth,I also enjoyed your posts about Sri Bhagavan in the SRK -devotees of the Trio ,Forum of devotees of Sri Ramakrishna,Sri sarada Devi and Swami Vivekananda-where you mostly post on Sri Bhagavan and his sayings(I do not call them teachings,since Sri Bhagavan never taught!).
our friend Subramanian is quite familiar to me,how dearly he loves Sri Bhagavan!He has some kind words to say about me here-so they are kind words of affection and encouragement for a fellow devotee.Reading that post of his recalls to my mind this wonderful saying of Master Mahasaya or 'M' who wrote The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna.It is an interesting incident:
Subodh Chandra Ghosh who later on became Swami SubhodAnanda(Khoka Maharaj) was a boy in his teens who came to know about Sri Ramakrishna and used to visit him in Dakshineswar on weekends or Holidays.Subodh was always straight forward and candid. One day the Master asked Subodh to go now and then to Mahendra Nath Gupta afterwards known as 'M' who lived near Subodh's home in Calcutta. At this the boy said, "He has not been able to cut asunder his family tie, what shall I learn of God from him?" The Master enjoyed these words indicative of Subodh's great spirit of renunciation and said, 'He will not talk anything of his own. He will talk only of what he learns from here." So one day Subodh went to 'M' and frankly narrated the conversation he had had with the Master. 'M' appreciated the frankness of the boy and said, "I am an insignificant person. But I live by the side of an ocean, and I keep with me a few pitchers of sea water. When a visitor comes, I entertain him with that. What else can I speak?" The sweet and candid nature of Subodh soon made him a great favourite with 'M'. After this Subodh was a frequent visitor at his house, where he would often spend long hours listening to 'M''s talks on the Master.

Namaskar.

Nagaraj

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #62 on: March 31, 2012, 09:36:21 AM »
Dear Ravi,

Your post reminded me about the story of Narada. Narada was actually a celestial being, who was cursed due to some reasons to be born in earth as a son to a maid servant, who was serving at a house, where people were extremely devoted, and carried out various Yajnas and other sacrifices. As a boy, Narada used to see many great yogis come to the house to participate in the yajnas. He used to serve these yogis in some small insignificant ways, as his mother was busy with her chores. And the Yogis too, let the small boy be around.

As a small boy, Narada, who happened to hear the yogis talk and discuss among themselves about Vishnu, or MahaVakyas, or the Truth, They cast some divine spell or impression in the young boy's mind, who later, went to forests and did Tapas, and eventually attained Godhood.

small children even though them may be seen to simply run around in such satsangs, their subconscious mind would be grasping every thing. While we listen through mind, young children listen through heart. Any time jnana could bloom in them.

When we live with Saints or even with the devotees of Saints, it does highest good to us, any time the spark of jnana may be realised. If something is very close to fire, it is highly possible that it could also catch fire.

Arunachala Giri is one such place, where, if, one even just happens to go, it casts its spell which has potential to bloom any time, when it wants!

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: July 09, 2014, 02:08:32 PM by Nagaraj »
தீக்குள் விரலை வைத்தால் நந்த லாலா- நின்னைத்
தீண்டு மின்பந் தோன்று தடா நந்த லாலா

           In flames fingered, Nandha Laala
Feels thy caress, Nandha Laala

Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #63 on: March 31, 2012, 10:59:54 AM »
ramana1359,
Thanks very much for your warm welcome.I enjoyed reading your posts here,especially on the wonderful sayings of Lord Jesus,the Christ.Ramana,have you read about the wonderful Brother Lawrence and his 'Practice of the Presence of God'?Brother Lawrence is truly a Great soul!

Nagaraj,
Yes,Satsangha is a great boon.

Namaskar.

nonduel

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #64 on: March 31, 2012, 06:08:04 PM »
ramana1359,
Thanks very much for your warm welcome.I enjoyed reading your posts here,especially on the wonderful sayings of Lord Jesus,the Christ.Ramana,have you read about the wonderful Brother Lawrence and his 'Practice of the Presence of God'?Brother Lawrence is truly a Great soul!

Nagaraj,
Yes,Satsangha is a great boon.

Namaskar.

Dear Raviji,

You have a good memory Raviji!  Yes this is satsangha!

It is a wonderful place with a variety of expressed views on the understanding of the Self. And yours will add an even greater depth to our discussions. I particularly appreciate the different views, which sometime provoke a deeper understanding, and silence. Which is always the expressions of the Self.

Brother Lawrence's 'Practice of the Presence of God' is a very good book.

Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

latha

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #65 on: March 31, 2012, 10:42:30 PM »
Namaste All,

Welcome Raviji! I have been reading your posts along with R.Subramanianji's and Nagarajji's in David's blog. I have learnt a lot from the blog.

This forum is also really very helpful, mainly because people are very honest and share their strong and weak points in their spiritual journey. Thanks to all the members for this satsangha.

I am facing a conflict between my worldly life and trying to practice Bhagavan's teachings. I trust Bhagavan when he says this world is just another dreamlike state and it is false identification that is leading to the suffering. I am trying to use the sakshi bhava and question who is affected when faced with a tough situation but sometimes all I am able to do is pray to Bhagavan because I am too upset. In some ways the teachings and small glimpses of peace are making it harder to accept both good and bad situations like before.

I was listening to Nochurji's Kurai Onrum Illai discourse. It is definitely Bhagavan's grace to even listen to such messages. In this discourse, he compares the delayed start of an airplane's engine to a person's heart opening. I can relate to this and recognize the call from the Self or Bhagavan. But there is frustration and some guilt when I get depressed and give in to my old habits and watch some comedy or eat some sweets. Probably mind needs more purification for these vasanas to reduce?


Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #66 on: April 01, 2012, 10:56:45 AM »
Latha,
Thanks very much.Please feel free to call me Ravi.Kindly see my response in 'Rough Notebook-Open Forum'.
Namaskar.

Nagaraj

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #67 on: April 01, 2012, 12:28:38 PM »
Namaste All,

Welcome Raviji! I have been reading your posts along with R.Subramanianji's and Nagarajji's in David's blog. I have learnt a lot from the blog.

This forum is also really very helpful, mainly because people are very honest and share their strong and weak points in their spiritual journey. Thanks to all the members for this satsangha.

I am facing a conflict between my worldly life and trying to practice Bhagavan's teachings. I trust Bhagavan when he says this world is just another dreamlike state and it is false identification that is leading to the suffering. I am trying to use the sakshi bhava and question who is affected when faced with a tough situation but sometimes all I am able to do is pray to Bhagavan because I am too upset. In some ways the teachings and small glimpses of peace are making it harder to accept both good and bad situations like before.

I was listening to Nochurji's Kurai Onrum Illai discourse. It is definitely Bhagavan's grace to even listen to such messages. In this discourse, he compares the delayed start of an airplane's engine to a person's heart opening. I can relate to this and recognize the call from the Self or Bhagavan. But there is frustration and some guilt when I get depressed and give in to my old habits and watch some comedy or eat some sweets. Probably mind needs more purification for these vasanas to reduce?

Dear Latha,

your post reminded me Kabir's wonderful doha:

चलति चक्कि देखकर कबीर् दिया कबीरा रोय​
दुइ पाटन के बीच में साबुत बचा न कोए ॥


Your plea or cry or lament is exactly the cry of Kabir, who sees a woman grinding wheat using the grinding stone, and he contemplates himself as the the wheat, being ground, by the heavy stone, without being spared, it is made to crush, forcibly into fine powder, which cannot be segregated eventually. Seeing this, Kabir cries, because of the pain of Samsara,   दिया कबीरा रोय​ in between the sky and the earth दुइ पाटन के बीच, all this takes place, all emotions, such as happiness, sorrow, pleasure, pain, goodness and badness, and so on, all the dualities. The bottom stone is the earth and the sky is the upper grinding stone, and the wheat being us, is being crushed, ie., these dualities is being crushed, it is painful.

But Kabir realises the grinding process, he realises the dualities, he realises the transient nature of all the dualities, you are feeling crushed because, even the idea that there is worldly life and spiritual life separate and distinctive to each other is also a duality, which is being crushed. You are begining to see the transient nature of experiences of worldly life, but also the transient nature of spiritual experiences as well.

Since you have become aware, of the duality of worldly life and spiritual life, you are being finely ground, when the wheat, before it is ground, we can segregate the wheat seeds separately, but when it is fully ground, it is impossible to segregate the finely powdered wheat, the process of coming to awareness is painful. Like the pain experienced by a mother during child birth, is both painful for the mother as well as the child. This also is a process of being born, the process of birth of Jnana is painful, too.

Kabir laments, and, cries too, realising the truth, yet, he has to undergo the drinding, he has to allow himself to be ground, powdered finely!

Till then, pray for strength, clarity, keep with your daily sadhana, hoping and striving to inculcate more and more sincerity to it.

I share with you this very famous, Serenity Prayer:

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.


Carl Jung, the famous psychiatrist, observed and quoted:

.... there is no coming to consciousness without pain."

In the process, just slowly begin to trust your own Chit Shakti, ie., your own discerning light, your own intelligence. This Chit shakthi from where all discernment originates, and which alone is the sakshi, which alone is the final judge, which gives out judgements without words or thoughts, but only through the silence, Mauna Vaakya, is the one of the names of Goddess found the Lalita Sahasranaamam, Chidagni Kunda Sambhoota -

Chit Agni Kunda Sambhoota - Chit + Agni + Kunda + Sambhuta: Chit : It's the fire of pure consciousness Agni, the inteligence, the discerning source : The fire Kunda : The altar, the reflection, which also done from the same source, Kunda is the Later, where Homa fire is set, which is yourself,  yourself Sambhuta : To be born.

Also, You are the Karta, you are the Discerner, you are the fruits of your discernment as well. in Vishnu Sahasranamam, yajna bhruth yajna kruth yajni: yajna bhuk yajna-sadhanaha:

Yagna brit = He who accepts yagna

Yagna krit = He who doer of Yagna

Yagni = He who is the Yagna itself (everythin, all of above and below)

Yagna bhug = He who enjoys the fruits of Yagna, ie. the clarity that is seen or the discernment that is known is also He himself.

Yagna sadhana = He who puts efforts, Purashkara as a method of attaining Him, that effort also is He himself

So, now, we can discern that the grinding stones are also oneself only, the one pure self, from within, which gets all his power from the one single source, which is God, Self, Atma, Guru.

You are the wheat, you are the top grinding stone and the bottom grinding stones as well, and the handle that is used to rotate the grinding stone is also yourself as the doer, and the purushkara or the effort that is needed to rotate the grinding stone and also the intelligence by which you knew that you have to rotate the handle inorder to grind the wheat also originates from yourself. The finely grounded wheat, that is the Clarity, the Peace, the Samadhi or the Samatva, Shanti, is also yourself.

Keep the Yajna on, add lot of Ghee, add lot of fuel, ie. Sadhana with purity.

:)

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: April 01, 2012, 01:10:17 PM by Nagaraj »
தீக்குள் விரலை வைத்தால் நந்த லாலா- நின்னைத்
தீண்டு மின்பந் தோன்று தடா நந்த லாலா

           In flames fingered, Nandha Laala
Feels thy caress, Nandha Laala

Hari

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #68 on: April 01, 2012, 03:08:07 PM »
Quote
Ramana,have you read about the wonderful Brother Lawrence and his 'Practice of the Presence of God'?Brother Lawrence is truly a Great soul!

No, Sri Ravi. I have never read any book about Lord Jesus, except the Bible and some Gnostic Gospels. I will try to find this book and will read it. Thank you!
"The Tao that can be spoken is not the eternal Tao.
The name that can be named is not the eternal name.
The nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth.
The named is the mother of myriad things".
[Lao Tzu]

Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #69 on: April 01, 2012, 05:07:21 PM »
Ramana1359/Friends,
On Brother Lawrence,please refer to my post in 'Rough Notebook-Open Forum',in  the General Discussion under General Category.
Namaskar.

latha

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #70 on: April 01, 2012, 10:26:15 PM »
Udaiji, Nagarajji and Raviji(sorry not yet comfortable to drop the"ji"),thank you for your responses. After some contemplation, this is what dawned on me. 

Problem: I(body, mind and ego) am experiencing pain from the cleansing process or spiritual journey but unable and unwilling to stop the process.

Answer: The attention needs to be shifted to the Chit Shakti(or what I think of as Heart center) instead of the body, mind, ego and their problems with dualities. To realize the events(good and bad) are just like dreams(good and bad) and deal with them without getting disturbed. In other words, to be centered - BE STILL - BE.

With the grace of Bhagavan, Karma yoga, shravanam, mananam, satsangha, etc., need to be used to shift and keep the attention in the Self.


Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #71 on: April 02, 2012, 08:35:11 AM »
uday/Friends,

Quote
"every day prayer, little meditation, listening to some Saint's teachings, reading Ramana's words etc. This would create the right environment for one to develop in karma yoga and also eventually release oneself from all bondage. This also means one has started to wake up early, sleep early, eat in limited amounts, exercise regularly etc. All these are nithya karmas. Please see that when one does all these, one is setting everything in correct order"

Absolutely.Rhythm and steadiness is key to sadhana.Otherwise it will be in Fits and Starts.
As Sri Ramakrishna says:
"The worldly man's devotion to God
is momentary―like a drop of water on a redhot frying-pan. Perchance he looks at a flower
and exclaims, 'Ah, what a wonderful creation of God!'"
Sri Ramakrishna taught the devotees how to call on the Divine Mother.
<b>Master's prayer to the Divine Mother</b>
MASTER: "I used to pray to Her in this way: 'O Mother! O Blissful One! Reveal Thyself to
me. Thou must!' Again, I would say to Her: 'O Lord of the lowly! O Lord of the universe!
Surely I am not outside Thy universe. I am bereft of knowledge. I am without discipline. I
have no devotion. I know nothing. Thou must be gracious and reveal Thyself to me.' "
Thus the Master taught the devotees how to pray. They were deeply touched. Tears filled
Mahimacharan's eyes.

Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #72 on: April 02, 2012, 03:08:21 PM »
Udai,
Yes,Sri Ramakrishna is very dear to me.His teachings are closest to my heart and way of sadhana.These words of 'M' always strike the deepest chord in me.
Quote
In an inspired mood "M" once wrote of Ramakrishna:

   "The Master was like a five-year-old boy always running to meet his Mother.
    The Master was like a bonfire from which other lamps were lighted.
    The Master was like a celestial vina always absorbed in singing the glory of the Divine Mother.
    The Master was like a big fish joyfully swimming in calm, clear, blue waters, the Ocean of Satchidananda.
    The Master was like a bird which had left its nest in a storm and then, perched on the threshold of the Infinite,
    was joyfully moving between the two realms, singing the glory of the Infinite."
Finally 'M' had to give up saying "All these descriptions fall short"!

In The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna ,one of the most charming thing to me is when the Master used to ask 'M':'What do you think of me?'

Here are excerpts from The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna where the Master asks 'M' this fascinating question!
1.As Sri Ramakrishna walked up and down the hall with M., he said to him: "Let me ask you
something. What do you think of me?"
M. remained silent. Again Sri Ramakrishna asked: "What do you think of me? How many
annas of knowledge of God have I?"
M: "I don't understand what you mean by 'annas'. But of this I am sure: I have never before
seen such knowledge, ecstatic love, faith in God, renunciation, and catholicity anywhere
."
The Master laughed.

2.Ishan took his leave and Sri Ramakrishna talked with M. No one else was present. He asked
M. what he thought of Narendra, Rakhal, Adhar, and Hazra, and whether they were
guileless. "And", asked the Master, "what do you think of me?" .
M. said: "You are simple and at the same time deep. It is extremely difficult to understand
you
."
Sri Ramakrishna laughed.

3.MASTER: "Have you found anyone else resembling me-any pundit or holy man?"
M: "God has created you with His own hands, whereas He has made others by machine. All
others He has created according to law."
MASTER (laughing, to Ramlal and the other devotees): "Listen to what he is saying!"

The Master in his charming way is seeing how well 'M' has understood him .He knew that 'M' is going to write the wonderful 'kathAmrita'-The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna that is considered one of the All time Great Classics in spiritual Hagiography.

Thanks uday,I will ramble on and on if you prod me on sri Ramakrishna.So,I will stop here.

Namaskar.

Ravi.N

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #73 on: April 02, 2012, 04:40:08 PM »
uday,
I will revert to the 'Rough Notebook-Open Forum' for further posts on Sri Ramakrishna.
Namaskar.