Author Topic: Free Will and Destiny  (Read 18736 times)

Subramanian.R

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #30 on: March 19, 2012, 07:07:18 PM »
Dear Ramana,

Someone asked Sri Bhagavan: Whether efforts are necessary for self inquiry?

Sri B: Yes. Efforts are essential.

Devotee: Is the Grace of Guru or God necessary?

Sri B: That is most essential. One can by sheer grace of Guru or God and realize the Self without even a bit of sadhana
towards self inquiry.

Arunachala Siva.   

nonduel

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #31 on: March 19, 2012, 08:17:06 PM »
Quote
Leave everything at the feet of Baghavan, put the luggage on the floor once on the train to Realisation. Abide in the self and let Bliss fill you, Baghavan "resides" there, nowhere else!

Yes. But how? If I have no will how can I leave everything or to put the luggage on the floor?

Now do you understand why the matter of free will and destiny matters to me? Because the answer of the question does I have will or not give me the starting point and direction how to follow Bhagavan's teachings. If I accept "everything is predestined" then how can I have faith in any teaching? Everything is predestined and thus all ends. If my destiny say "OK, you will be liberated", I will be liberated. If it says no, I will not be and following Bhagavan or any other is meaningless. The question is does my intention to be liberated matter? Or no matter what if I am not destined I am doomed. That's the most important question from relative point of view for all followers.

Your intention to be liberated IS GRACE!

All the points that you mention are due to the belief that you are a body, called Ramana1359...etc.

Let me tell you what happens when you do self-Enquiry as Baghavan taught.

When you keep your attention on yourself (Ramana1359) and you do so as best you can, with earnestness, what happens is that after some time you will experience observing Ramana1359 and realise that you are a separate observer.

At the beginning of your life, your birth (Ramana1359) you (the observer) have accepted all that has been told to you. That you are a man or women, that you have parents etc...etc. And this became very deeply engrained in you, and you never questionned all of this.

Now once you realise that you are the observer, a silent witness in the background that is observing Ramana1359 it will hit you that you CANNOT BE WHAT YOU OBSERVE!!! Thus you cannot be this body. Do you understand this?

But this is also duality. A subject (the observer) and an object (Ramana1359). Thus this is not the Self. As you keep up with self-attention (on the observer) eventually the mind sinks in the heart and dies. This is liberation!

So the question of destiny and freewill applies to Ramana1359 NOT to the Absolute.

You could read a small booklet called "Drg-Drsya-Viveka" (An inquiry into the nature of the "Seer" and the "Seen") which will help you understand.

Believe me that all sadhakas have/had the same questions. This inner restlessness, hunger for the Truth is GRACE, it is a blessing.

You leave everything on the floor by doing self-enquiry. The I-Thought is the first thought and self-attention keeps you nearest to the Self. The mind will relentlessly  try to keep you occupied, thoughts will surge. To destroy these just ignore them the best you can. When doubt arrise, return to self-attention and rest there. Soon Bliss will surge and fill you and then the restlessness, the doubts will weaken.
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #32 on: March 20, 2012, 10:37:02 AM »
Dear nonduel,


Excellent post.

Arunachala Siva.

Hari

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #33 on: March 20, 2012, 03:18:02 PM »
Thank you for your explanation, nonduel!
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Subramanian.R

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2012, 04:08:13 PM »
Dear Ramana,

Drk-Drsya Viveka - is available in Sanskrit and English meaning published by
Sri Ramakrishna Math. Sri Bhagavan has also rendered it in Tamizh prose and this is available in Tamizh
Collected Works. Arthur Osborne in his English translation of Sri Bhagavan's works has given it in English prose.

Arunachala Siva.

cefnbrithdir

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2012, 08:40:10 PM »

Dear Ramana

Reading your concerns about free will and destiny, I keep on thinking that this is your mind whirring around. Would not Bhagavan be asking you something like  "Who is having these thoughts?" "Find out where these thoughts are coming from" and eventually "See then  whether you still have these thoughts and questions ...."

I believe you have a  Christian background - the same as mine. We have so much baggage to contend with  - in this context Calvin comes to mind. But also the difficulties of understanding  Jesus's words where from the start there was much editing, amalgamating, difficulties of establishing context and what was appropriate for one person as opposed to another at a particular time. Sayings can appear to conflict and your concerns on this subject prompted me to think  about  not being a stumbling block to others. But we can only look towards God, "the kingdom of heaven" is at least initially within us; we have to take the log out of our own  eye before we can take the speck out of others and in the end the teaching on the  question of doership or rather non doership is the same. To paraphrase  Margaret Fell the early Quaker  - we have taken the scriptures in words, but  we have to know them within ourselves.

One of the many wonderful graces of Bhagavan is that here is the same teaching and power  refreshing and illuminating the words and teaching of the  Son of Man.   (Have you read the Gospel of Thomas ?)

I  have also received much from  Sri Siddharameshwar Maharaj's  "Master of Self - Realization".  I find his way of expressing himself  very "clean".  My response to Bhagavan is more "emotional". I need both and alternate in my reading.  Sri Siddharameshwar also  uses words, expressions  and analogies which resonate Gospel words to me. It is an illuminating and affirming experience. It is all the same.

Hari

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #36 on: March 21, 2012, 08:42:11 PM »
Quote
Your intention to be liberated IS GRACE!


Accept that. But why God has not granted with His Grace my friends for example? If you say "there is no free will" then you tell me that God has granted me and all forum members here with His Grace but most hindus, christian or muslims, has not even though they pray, do religion rituals and so on and some of them even give their family life, occupation and so on in His Name. If we accept that we have no any free will then God decides even who to follow Him and who do not. Then all spiritual life is meaningless. Nobody could try to change him/herself to be good, even to follow God. People could say "I don't want to lead a spiritual life. If God wants then I will be changed and will start following Him". That's my point. To believe in determinism (which means to believe that every detail, no matter how small is is predetermined) makes life absolutely meaningless and makes people like inanimate robots. There is no bhakti because it's like God pray to Himself using people. There is no Self-inquiry because God has already decided who can do it and who can not. That's my point.

There is only the Self all of you always say. But you don't know it. You believe it. To know it means to realize that everything is illusion, to experience the reality and if you know that you are free and will not need anything - Self-inquiry, forums, gurus and so on. All of us are what we know we are. Now we know we are human and believe we are the Self. So I or you telling "I am the Self" is "hypocracy". Ramana can say it. Sri Ramakrishna can say it. All jnanis say "You are already That". They can say it because they know That! We can only to believe or not to believe them. So my point is that now you are jiva and you are bound! No matter what kind of words would you say, now you are bound. And to say "world and my body are unreal and it doesn't matter what will happen" is another hypocricy. No matter how many quotation and scriptures we quote, that doesn't make us more "free". For me now God is real, free will is real, my mother is real, my father is real, my grandparents are real, my friends are real, animals, plants, this world. And I bet it is the same with all of you. Just saying "they are not real" doesn't change that. "The world is a dream?" Does anyone of you know that?

Quote
Let me tell you what happens when you do self-Enquiry as Baghavan taught.

When you keep your attention on yourself (Ramana1359) and you do so as best you can, with earnestness, what happens is that after some time you will experience observing Ramana1359 and realise that you are a separate observer.

At the beginning of your life, your birth (Ramana1359) you (the observer) have accepted all that has been told to you. That you are a man or women, that you have parents etc...etc. And this became very deeply engrained in you, and you never questionned all of this.

Now once you realise that you are the observer, a silent witness in the background that is observing Ramana1359 it will hit you that you CANNOT BE WHAT YOU OBSERVE!!! Thus you cannot be this body. Do you understand this?

But this is also duality. A subject (the observer) and an object (Ramana1359). Thus this is not the Self. As you keep up with self-attention (on the observer) eventually the mind sinks in the heart and dies. This is liberation!

So the question of destiny and freewill applies to Ramana1359 NOT to the Absolute.

You could read a small booklet called "Drg-Drsya-Viveka" (An inquiry into the nature of the "Seer" and the "Seen") which will help you understand.

Believe me that all sadhakas have/had the same questions. This inner restlessness, hunger for the Truth is GRACE, it is a blessing.

You leave everything on the floor by doing self-enquiry. The I-Thought is the first thought and self-attention keeps you nearest to the Self. The mind will relentlessly  try to keep you occupied, thoughts will surge. To destroy these just ignore them the best you can. When doubt arrise, return to self-attention and rest there. Soon Bliss will surge and fill you and then the restlessness, the doubts will weaken.

If God grands me with this Grace, with this Truth and shows me that, then I can say "I am That. I am Paramatma." Experience is the important thing, not words, theories and so on. We are what we experience. When I experience I am a human, I am a human. When I experience I am asleep, I am asleep. If I experience pain, the pain is part of me and is real. Does repeating "there is no free will" or "you can do anything" or "I am Atma" change anything? Does that make us more free? I don't thinks so. But this strengthen our faith and attitude. Is our life and sadhana our responsibility (free will) or we must wait what comes (destiny) - let's everyone deciced for him/herself.

Lord Ramana has said many things but He has known why He has said it. Because He is the Lord, the Truth, the Self. And I don't know that. I believe that. So I cannot teach you that, because I am not sure of it. So telling our belief is the Supreme Truth without even knowing it is something which I cannot admit. I have many friends. We talk about many things, many times we discuss the meaning of life and so on. But how can I say them "O, don't you know, you are the Self" when I don't know it?

P.S. Thanks to all of you about your comments and help - Sri Subramanian, Sri Udai, nondual, Sri Nagaraj, cefnbrithdir.
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Hari

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #37 on: March 21, 2012, 08:50:00 PM »
Quote
I believe you have a  Christian background - the same as mine. We have so much baggage to contend with  - in this context Calvin comes to mind. But also the difficulties of understanding  Jesus's words where from the start there was much editing, amalgamating, difficulties of establishing context and what was appropriate for one person as opposed to another at a particular time. Sayings can appear to conflict and your concerns on this subject prompted me to think  about  not being a stumbling block to others. But we can only look towards God, "the kingdom of heaven" is at least initially within us; we have to take the log out of our own  eye before we can take the speck out of others and in the end the teaching on the  question of doership or rather non doership is the same. To paraphrase  Margaret Fell the early Quaker  - we have taken the scriptures in words, but  we have to know them within ourselves.

Yes. It's true. I am from European, christian country. But I have never followed orthodox christian believes and dogmas because I've always considered them as anti-Christ teachings.
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Nagaraj

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #38 on: March 21, 2012, 11:13:46 PM »
Dear Ramana,

This is not related to your post. Just wanted to say that it would do you immense good if you are able to talk to somebody, if there are any Ramana centre near your place. I say because, the writing medium is very limited. I really appreciate your earnest search, as you have been questioning in spite of agreements and dis agreements. This is the true spirit!

Have you ever been to India? Ramanashram? You must please do so, at the earliest, i am able to see the hunger in you, the fire, which will push you beyond your grasp.

No matter how many exchanges you may have, it is still no par to the silence, especially experienced at Bhagavan's Sannidhi.

May be i would share some thoughts on your post tomorrow.

Meanwhile, here I share Krishna's verse from BG: Chap 4, 34:

tad viddhi pranipatena pariprasnena sevaya
upadeksyanti te jnanam jnaninas tattva-darsinah

Making Sashtanga Namaskar, i.e., prostration, complete surrender or with total faith, questioning the guru, serving him, learn what this Jnana is. Then, those Jnanis that have attained the real knowledge of the Sad-Vastu (Brahma) will give you upadesha (instruction) of Jnana.

Salutations to Bhagavan
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

nonduel

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2012, 12:26:29 AM »
Dear Ramana 1359,

I agree with you on many points, as beleiving versus Ramana; quotes and scripture for example.

Quote:
 Lord Ramana has said many things but He has known why He has said it. Because He is the Lord, the Truth, the Self. And I don't know that. I believe that. So I cannot teach you that, because I am not sure of it. So telling our belief is the Supreme Truth without even knowing it is something which I cannot admit. I have many friends. We talk about many things, many times we discuss the meaning of life and so on. But how can I say them "O, don't you know, you are the Self" when I don't know it?

I gather from this quote that you deeply believe Ramana. Then do not accept what nonduel and all other tell you, and feel absolutely free to question all that they tell you. Just trust Ramana who said that the fastest way to Self-Realisation was Self-enquiry.

I can only share my personal experience with vichara, which I have done in my preceeding post.

I can assure you that all your questions will be answered, you will experience the Bliss....but you have to DO IT.

Everyone here shares his experience. It is a blessing to be here because this sharing helps to calm the mind's thirst for knowledge. When tough questions surge and shake our sadhana, it is a good place to discuss and get rid of doubts.

I repeat dear Ramana1359, it is Grace that is manifesting deeply in you with all these questions. Like an inner tsunami!
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

Nagaraj

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2012, 09:28:29 AM »
Dear Ramana,

There are so many layers in your post, i.e., you have raised so many questions, so subtle, that even if any reflection is posted here, you may get paranoid as it will never address to all your questions. Therefore, it is my personal observation and experience that it is our question that is MOST IMPORTANT. We are all most times unclear in our questions. We really don't know what is our question, we don't know yet what we really are looking for? Hence i always lay stress on oneself in narrowing down ones question, and one by one. The many questions may be very valid, but, if the questions are clustered and flustered, then which question will get addressed?

So, always try to narrow down your question, give priority to your questions, which is the first and basic thing I want to know. That will clear the many layers one by one. This is my experience.

Firstly, I want to share that, at all times, each one of us are only conversing with oneself alone and never with 'other'. I want to say, honestly, what ever I say, express, is truly, my experience, to the limit of my own experience, it is not belief, it is true to me, and, anything that is beyond my grasp, i don't express. Hence, i trust my words, for i have seen it, and, it is my experiential reality, i am constantly aware, when ever I am inspired by somebody, it is myself, whenever I am angry with somebody, it is myself, and, so on. when you know this, one will never blame anybody ever again, for if at all one has to blame, one has to blame oneself :)

Let me elaborate,

When you just posted your response. I read your post. What ever you have conveyed in your post, it is my own post (but it is your post) and, my response to this post is my own response to my own post (but it is your post).

When you now read my post as a response, it is your own response (but my response) to your own question, and, if you have any response to it, it is your response to your own post (but it is my post)

do you get it? If you are able to get a grasp of this, then many questions drop off by themselves.

Upanishads say Self is everywhere. when you read this, you are here and you are reading this, and you understand it. and if there is a question in this post, its your own question which is already there in you. and if you are responding to that question, its your own answer to your own question.

I am You. You am I

In this regard, let me also quote Bhagavan's words, as follows:

“My” implies the “I”, which owns the senses. You take your existence for granted; at the same time ask others to prove it to you. Similarly you admit the certainty of your senses, which see others, whilst denying all certainty. You see how you contradict yourself. The fact is that there are no others: there is no such a person as “you”. Each man, although addressed as “you”, styles himself as “I”. Even the confirmation you demand from others comes only from the “I”. “You” and “they” occur only to the “I”, without which they are meaningless.

Now, if you are able to get grasp of this fact that there is no 'other' really as you are seeing, then all the questions pertaining 'others' drop off immediately, as, you know clearly, that there is really no 'other' but that 'other' is also just yourself only. Now, this is just one layer, this may prompt you to ask another question, let it be. Even though you are still able to see 'others' continue doing what you usually do to them, but now the only change will be that, you will know that by doing something to others or talking something to others, you are only doing for yourself alone and really not to them.

The 'other' exists so long, you, ie. oneself remain flustered and clustered, they are there only because you are yet to receive some thing from them, jnana. Till you attain poornatvam, completeness, 'others' continue to appear. i.e. so long the many layers of questions exists, the 'others' appear so long you clear these many layers. The more you narrow down your questions, one by one, the dualities disappear one by one. Then your vision, will get limited, or rather, get unlimited slowly and steadily on your own 'Self' as you will begin to see the Massivity or the Infinite Expanse of your own Self.

This is just one layer. More later.

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: March 22, 2012, 10:34:17 AM by Nagaraj »
॥ शांतमात्मनि तिष्ट ॥
Remain quietly in the Self.
~ Vasishta

Hari

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2012, 10:17:38 PM »
First of all. Thanks to all of you with all my heart!

Dear Ramana 1359,

I agree with you on many points, as beleiving versus Ramana; quotes and scripture for example.

Quote:
 Lord Ramana has said many things but He has known why He has said it. Because He is the Lord, the Truth, the Self. And I don't know that. I believe that. So I cannot teach you that, because I am not sure of it. So telling our belief is the Supreme Truth without even knowing it is something which I cannot admit. I have many friends. We talk about many things, many times we discuss the meaning of life and so on. But how can I say them "O, don't you know, you are the Self" when I don't know it?

I gather from this quote that you deeply believe Ramana. Then do not accept what nonduel and all other tell you, and feel absolutely free to question all that they tell you. Just trust Ramana who said that the fastest way to Self-Realisation was Self-enquiry.

I can only share my personal experience with vichara, which I have done in my preceeding post.

I can assure you that all your questions will be answered, you will experience the Bliss....but you have to DO IT.

Everyone here shares his experience. It is a blessing to be here because this sharing helps to calm the mind's thirst for knowledge. When tough questions surge and shake our sadhana, it is a good place to discuss and get rid of doubts.

I repeat dear Ramana1359, it is Grace that is manifesting deeply in you with all these questions. Like an inner tsunami!

Yes. I believe Ramana but if you ask me why, I cannot explain. It's something which is unexplainable. Everything is belief in my view. Relative world is based on belief. That's why I think that. First because in relative world there is no "one truth". And choosing one istead of another is due to our belief, our inclination. It's true even in spiritual world. There are many religions, philosophies and so on but we choose one of them. Can we prove that our religion is right? Or that our country is oldest, best (because every country tries to prove it's the best simply speaking)? Even in science. We have discovered many things, we cannot ignore them, but can we prove that theoretical model which we use to explain them is right? Theories change periodically. Isn't everything belief, even our individual existence? So how can we say something relative is knowledge? Everything in the world is like sand passing through our fingers. I remember always the words of Bhagavan:
Quote
Reality must be always real. It is not with forms and names. That which underlies these is the reality....Reality is that which is. It is as it is. It transcends speech. It is beyond the expressions "existence, non-existence", etc.
Reality is beyond dualities, forms and names according to Ramana. Then what do we really know? Nothing. We, especially Americans and Europeans, are proud of our scientific knowledge and achievemnts, our history, our religion which we consider the only "true" one. But Ramana gently slap us right in the face telling us "You are wrong. Wake up."

Destiny and free will are equally nonexistent says Lord Ramana. But this is absolute knowledge. But unfortunately our knowledge is relative. The question is what belief is best for sadhaka. How can a bhakta accept that he or she doesn't free will? This makes bhakti dry like a rusk. How can a jnani say that there is free will when he knows only the Self? How can a karma yogi say there is free will when they see that everything goes on even when they have no will on their own? How can a raja yogi say that there is no free will when they use their will every day to do his spiritual sadhana? I hope you get my point.

Let imagine this situation. I don't want to eat meat. But I can eat it. Why don't I do it? Is that my free will or my destiny? Or if I help a beggar but I don't do it willingly is that my free will or my destiny? Isn't the excuse that I don't help to a person in need because I don't want because God has created me, designed my destiny like that a arrogance and hypocricy? I don't try to say that people who believe in free will are right or wrong. Such kind of discussion are meaningless among people believing in Advaita. I'm just trying to show that extreme positions like determinism and libertarianism can be unhealthy for spiritual sadhana making sadhaka completely irresponsable to him/herself and others or completely confused thinking that he or she can do everything whenever and however he or she wants. In reality there is only One Will - God's Will. Or may be it can be said that our free will is God's Will. We are like puppets controlled by the Lord but the way He controls us is according to the actions by our free will. If it is not true then all speaking about karma, reincarnation, destiny are pointless. But Hinduism is based on this. If we have no free will then why God instructs us to do this or that in all these scriptures? Even doing Self-inquiry is free will. Yes, I accept it is Grace to know about Self-inquiry and asking all these questions but isn't our free will to choose to learn a lesson from them and to practice them, to integrate them in our life?

I don't intend to try to prove I am right. My intention is just to share my thoughts and to duscuss the topic with you and moreover to try make you see how I see it.

I wish to all of you Lord Ramana to give you His Grace and you to make it so to receive It.

Salutation to Bhagavan!
Arunachala Shiva!
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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2012, 10:27:35 PM »
Quote
Have you ever been to India? Ramanashram? You must please do so, at the earliest, i am able to see the hunger in you, the fire, which will push you beyond your grasp.


No, dear Nagaraj. I have never visited India and Ramanashram in particular. It's one of my deepest worldly desires. Now I am studying and can't afford it. But I hope one day to visit it. I am sure it is a great experience. I can only imagine. Most of you have felt the magic of Ramana because you have visited Ramanashamam, the Tiruvannamalai Temples and so on. The only thing that I have seen are pictures of Bhagavan in Internet and I have a printed one which I hang on the wall when everyone has gone to bed. I hope everything will change one day.
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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #43 on: March 23, 2012, 12:25:26 AM »
Quote
I can assure you that all your questions will be answered, you will experience the Bliss....but you have to DO IT.

I believe you and trust you!

Quote
Everyone here shares his experience. It is a blessing to be here because this sharing helps to calm the mind's thirst for knowledge. When tough questions surge and shake our sadhana, it is a good place to discuss and get rid of doubts.

Yes. This is the purpose of this forum - to share thoughts and experiences, to encourage and help each other in difficult moments.

Thanks to you and all other members for the help you have given me all this time from my registration in this forum to this very moment.
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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #44 on: March 23, 2012, 10:38:48 AM »
Quote
That said, there is a major reason why peole do not "Know". We think some "Exotic" Experience of Brahman will happen --- something like the death experience.

Dear Sri Udai. By "know" I mean what Ramana has meant - "to experience". "Be still and know I am (is) God". But yes, I see what you mean. Knowledge is relative knowledge. It needs knower, knowing and object of knowledge. But Ramana somethimes has used it to describe the experience. Just play with words. The important thing is the meaning. The experience of Brahman, as I understand it, is just being, meaning absense of all objective experiences (seeing, smelling and so on).

Quote
And then we can claim to know. Please see, lets assume this is true for a moment --- how will the person who had such an experience know that he or she is not hallucinating ? any experience at the mental level is simulatable. perhaps a few electric or neural signals in particular areas of brain and the person starts feeling he or she is not there. do you get this point, please ? This , what ever I just said, is not soemthing to be believed. Its atonce right. because we know that experiencs can all be simulated. we do it in our dreams every day.


If all is brain and neuron activity I cannot say. There are people with inactive brains that report objective experiences when they are revived. There is many people who were put under regressive hypnosis remembering every detail from their last death, the life beyond and so on. I know such people and these are not just stories for selling books. The only thing that I can say without doubt is that this experience is objective as I have yet mentioned. Everything other is open for interpretations.

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Please read this a few times before coming to some conclusions. I am going to discuss this here with a logical precision ... something that needs to be very carefully understood.
Experience is not what we lack. Really. We have experiences, through out the day. And if God is everywhere, every experience we had should be an experience of God!! in that case, it means that we do not lack the experience of God. The person whom you met in the morning is God -- this air, that water ... everything is God. so we can never say we lack experience of God. What we really lack is the ability to recognize the experience of God. Thats the main problem.

Yes, it is. It is what all great saints tell us. But to see God everywhere means to realize that there is nothing other than the Self. Mother Teresa has said that when she helps people she doesn't see people but Jesus Christ Himself. Sri Ramakrishna has seen only Mother Kali. Bhagavan Ramana - only the formless Self. It's difficult for a worldly man to understand the soul of the bhakta.

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We do not lack the experience of Self. only we do not "Recognize" that experience. what I mean is "when i suffer, can I say I am complete?"
do you see this question ? I think thats the most fundamental of the questions. In your whole post, I think this is the point. The problem is "scriptures state I am Complete, Purna". and "I suffer", this suffering is practical. While the scriptures or Ramana ... say somethign diagonally opposite. So how to take that ? Thats the question. Am I supposed to be just repeating what Ramana said and continue to hide the fact that I suffer, i am troubled etc? or am i supposed to accept that i am suffering and reject Ramana ? I do not want ot reject Ramana ... coz Ramana seems so correct. Atleast when i am reading it. but , practicality of life says , i suffer. so what am i to accept?

This is the fundamental point... most fundamental question we have.


Yes. All my point is that we should be honest to ourselves. What is the point if I tell you "The Self is the only reality. It is everything. I am this Self" when I don't experience it. In this case I am like false christian preachers who teach love, compasion, continence but at the same time are hateful, cold-hearted, egoistic and lustful. I prefer to be honest to myself and to you. Now I feel I am a jiva. I feel that world exists. I experience everything as individuality. For me what happens after death matters. I have hopes, fears, passions. I am trying my best to be a better man and son, no matter how difficult it is for me. I have dedicated my life for the truth and this is the only thing that I want most. But I can do it the way I do it. I cannot become sannyasin, to run away from bad people, to reject what benefits me or my parents only because fundamentally it is unreal, to be celibate and so on. I have discovered for myself that physical renunciation doesn't resolve the problem. On the contrary - it makes it worse! The real renunciation is in the mind. What is needed to be liberated? To be myself or to be My Self? To accept what I'm feeling I am now or what Lord Ramana says for me? Must we reject anything at all? That's another question which needs to be discussed.
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