Author Topic: Free Will and Destiny  (Read 6010 times)

Subramanian.R

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Free Will and Destiny
« on: February 05, 2009, 04:32:01 PM »
D.S. Sastri, who has written a small book on Upadesa Saram writes:

The Maharshi's answer to my question as to the meaning of the first
verse of Upadesa Saram, was specifically that, "The body is subject to destiny alone."  This fate is dispensed by the will or sakti of Iswara, the manifested Brahman.  It is not determined by the actions themselves nor by the 'will' of the individual who suffers or enjoys such fate.  He has said elsewhere, "The Ordainer controls the fate of souls in accordance with their prarabdha karma."  Whatever is destined not to happen, will not happen, try as you may to prevent it... All the activities that the body is to go through are determined when it first comes into existence.  It does not rest with you to accept or reject them."  He applied this to even the smallest detail of one's life such as taking a drink of water at say, ten thirty seven, in the morning on November tenth!

One might, intellectually at least, accept such an absolute were it not for His seemingly contradictory statements made to others such as,
"Freewill exists together with the individuality.  As long as the individuality lasts, so long is there freewill."

The Maharshi's reply that the mind is subject to destiny and freewill is expaned in His earlier reply to a devotee.  "The only freedom you have is to turn your mind inward and renounce activities there..."

This ability or freedom, then from the individual's standpoint cannot actually be freewill but rather "freeing will". It is the ultimate meaning of Bhagavan Ramana's, "The only freedom you have.."

If we identiy 'freeing will' as that power which restores the suffering individual to his original identity, returns to him to his blissful source on a path prescribed by the Guru, then the power which launched him on the outgoing path of creation, birth, death, rebirth, may be designated as 'binding will'.  In any case there is only one will, that of Iswara, the Lord.

Saint Manikkavachagar says in Tiruvachakam:

O, you have taken hold of me and ruled me, this dog lowlier than a dog!
The maya of birth is always under your will,
Who is me to investigate?  What is my will?
Either you place me in a birth or keep me at your feet,
O the Lord with three eyes!           
 
                                      Kuzhaitha Pathu, Decad on Melting.

Arunachala Siva.

Anand Sundaram

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2012, 12:27:17 PM »
In continuation of the free will and destiny discussion , it is interesting to debate whether all our interactions even a particular conversation with a colleague or a boss or a family member  is predestined.
Sometimes an interaction results in an egostical reaction from one of the parties which has sometimes far reaching consequences.
That is why sometimes our parents and elders tell us to be carefull while talking to influential people.But sometimes we still err and say something which we need to regret ?
But are such interactions and the resultant consequences also predestined ?
Regards,
Anand.

Anand Sundaram

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2012, 12:33:26 PM »
In continuation to this ,this will also mean that if for example we have a difficult boss, the boss is not being difficult to us by virtue of his character but on account of our destiny .
This means we should have no grudge against such a boss ,acting as he is in line with the infinite intelligence which permeates all of us.
THis also means one of the reasons why pople change jobs has no substance at all.
I will request fellow devotees to kindly respond to both of these posts ,since I trust this topic will be of interest to others as well.
Regards,
Anand.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2012, 12:46:42 PM »
Dear Ananda Sundaram,

Everything is predestined, says Sri Bhagavan. Devaraja Mudaliar asked: Even simple things like lifting a hand fan from
the floor and waving it to get some air and then placing it back on the floor, are they pre destined?  Sri Bhagavan
replied: Yes. Everything is predestined. Even if your desire to take water, lifting a glass full of water and drinking it
- all these are predestined.

Kabir says: What rice should I eat, in that every rice grain, god has written my name and that I should eat it!

Arunachala Siva.

Anand Sundaram

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2012, 08:55:21 PM »
Dear friends,
With a firm acceptance of this that everything is predestined , can friends here share could be our attitude at a micro level in our work environment , family environment and our general interaction with the outside world.
Regards,
Anand

Anand Sundaram

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2012, 09:17:25 PM »
Please read earlier post as
Dear friends,
With a firm acceptance of this that everything is predestined , can friends here share what could be our attitude and thought process  at a micro level in our work environment , family environment and our general interaction with the outside world.
Regards,
Anand

nonduel

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2012, 10:50:39 PM »
D.S. Sastri, who has written a small book on Upadesa Saram writes:

The Maharshi's answer to my question as to the meaning of the first
verse of Upadesa Saram, was specifically that, "The body is subject to destiny alone."  This fate is dispensed by the will or sakti of Iswara, the manifested Brahman.  It is not determined by the actions themselves nor by the 'will' of the individual who suffers or enjoys such fate.  He has said elsewhere, "The Ordainer controls the fate of souls in accordance with their prarabdha karma."  Whatever is destined not to happen, will not happen, try as you may to prevent it... All the activities that the body is to go through are determined when it first comes into existence.  It does not rest with you to accept or reject them."  He applied this to even the smallest detail of one's life such as taking a drink of water at say, ten thirty seven, in the morning on November tenth!

One might, intellectually at least, accept such an absolute were it not for His seemingly contradictory statements made to others such as,
"Freewill exists together with the individuality.  As long as the individuality lasts, so long is there freewill."

The Maharshi's reply that the mind is subject to destiny and freewill is expaned in His earlier reply to a devotee.  "The only freedom you have is to turn your mind inward and renounce activities there..."

This ability or freedom, then from the individual's standpoint cannot actually be freewill but rather "freeing will". It is the ultimate meaning of Bhagavan Ramana's, "The only freedom you have.."

If we identiy 'freeing will' as that power which restores the suffering individual to his original identity, returns to him to his blissful source on a path prescribed by the Guru, then the power which launched him on the outgoing path of creation, birth, death, rebirth, may be designated as 'binding will'.  In any case there is only one will, that of Iswara, the Lord.

Saint Manikkavachagar says in Tiruvachakam:

O, you have taken hold of me and ruled me, this dog lowlier than a dog!
The maya of birth is always under your will,
Who is me to investigate?  What is my will?
Either you place me in a birth or keep me at your feet,
O the Lord with three eyes!           
 
                                      Kuzhaitha Pathu, Decad on Melting.

Arunachala Siva.

It is the body that is subject to destiny. It is the body NOT the SELF. The difficulty here exist only because of one's belief that he is the body. This belief comes with the identification of being a personality, an individual. The question of destiny, free will is for this individual.

The only freedom you have...applies for the individual that one accepts as being himself.

All this is maya's play in a dream.

The only freedom you have is to turn your mind inward and renounce activities there... This is to destroy the belief in I Am A Body. In other words, Self-Enquiry. To realize that you are, and always were the SELF.

You CAN renounce activities....therefore...you are NOT this individual
Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

nonduel

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2012, 11:09:54 PM »
Please read earlier post as
Dear friends,
With a firm acceptance of this that everything is predestined , can friends here share what could be our attitude and thought process  at a micro level in our work environment , family environment and our general interaction with the outside world.
Regards,
Anand

Self-enquiry is keeping one's attention on himself, what Sri Sadhu Om called Self-Attention. In Self-enquiry, after a while, there's a sudden realisation that there is "someone" looking at the self. There's a looker, a witness. With it, one realises that if he is this witness, he cannot be also the self he is looking at.

You cannot BE the object that you are observing!!! All that is happening to this individual, you are only observing.

First do not worry for what is happening since you have absolutely nothing to do with it.

Whatever is destined not to happen, will not happen, try as you may to prevent it... All the activities that the body is to go through are determined when it first comes into existence.  It does not rest with you to accept or reject them."  He applied this to even the smallest detail of one's life such as taking a drink of water at say, ten thirty seven, in the morning on November tenth!

You only believe and accept that you are an individual. Like identifying with an actor in a film and forgetting that you are the spectator. 

Oh Arunachala, blazing fire of Jnana, in my heart I pray and think of Thee from afar, root out the ego, merging me in the Self.

Achalam69

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #8 on: March 12, 2012, 01:01:37 PM »
Dear Friends

While we all accept Bagavan's verdict that "Everything is predetermined" including drinking a glass of water is very true, i have a few questions in this regard.

Suppose i am destined to be in Bangalore tomorrow and i am currently in Chennai. As it is destined that i have to be in Bangalore, thoughts related to booking tickets, packing my luggage, going to the ATM to withdraw money, some thoughts related to planning occur in my Mind. As this makes it clear, even the thoughts appearing in my Mind are also Pre-Determined.

If this is the case, then this applies to Spiritual Sadhana also, something tells me, oh , i have to do Japa now and i start chanting "Arunachala Shiva" . The same logic will apply to Atma Vichara also, a thought comes and goes, unless there is remembrance that i have to do self enquiry, this process doesn't start....so in real sense,if doing Self enquiry itself is not in my hands, then what am i , what is my stand .....can some one clarify please..

Nagaraj

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2012, 03:22:07 PM »
Dear Achalam,

Freewill, Destiny is ignorance. Self does not have either destiny or freewill.

All the talks about freewill and destiny is just dream.

You neither have freewill nor destiny.

Contemplate, where then, do you belong? what could be beyond freewill and destiny?

Salutations to Bhagavan
If one's mind has peace, the whole world will appear peaceful.

~ Sri Bhagavan

Subramanian.R

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2012, 03:47:58 PM »
Dear Achalam,

Sri Bhagavan says in Ulladu Narpadu, Verse 19:

All discussions about free will and destiny are only for those who lack discrimination. For one who experiences the source of
both destiny and free will, will under the One Principle and after realizing That, they will become silent and will no longer bother
about destiny and free will.

Arunachala Siva.   

Anand Sundaram

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2012, 05:43:22 PM »
Dear Subramanian and Nagaraj Sir,
Request to kindly eloborate on your posts in response to Mr.Achalam's query .
It is not clear .
regards,
Anand.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2012, 07:23:23 PM »
Dear Achalam,

If you are to be in Bangalore tomorrow and if you are destined to be there, destiny will also make you work for tickets
and withdrawal of money. If on any of these stages, there is some hurdle, say ATM is not working, tickets are not available,
even the flight ticket is not there, then you should infer that destiny is not all that favorable to your going.  If you try
to bend the destiny, by borrowing money from some friend and buying tickets through some tout, you can do so but your
train will not move from Chennai due to some hartal on the way!  Or even if you go to Bangalore, the Bangalore Office would
be closed due to some hartal in Bangalore.

The above is not a statement of logic. It has happened in my cases many times. My son's wedding was fixed for 13th December
2009 in Hyderabad. There was Telengana agitation. One Chendrasekhara Rao was on fast and he was almost dying. I quietly
prayed to Sri Bhagavan and proceeded to the station. The train no doubt moved slowly, stopping in various places due to
the fear of dangers on track tampered with. Ultimately, the train reached Hyd about 4 hrs late and the marriage was on 13th,
two days later. The marriage function went on well. By the time the strike became more severe and all trains had stopped coming
in and going out of Hyderabad.  Fortunately, anticipating this, one gentleman from bride''s side had booked 4 air tickets to Bangalore.
On 14th late morning, after completing Marriage Registration (since the couple had to go abroad), we just got into the plane
when the last call was made for us. All the anxieties and also  solutions were given by Sri Bhagavan. He interfered with destiny
and set the course right.

There are many such incidents. I trust in destiny. But I trust in Sri Bhagavan more.

Arunachala Siva.         
   

Nagaraj

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2012, 08:13:13 PM »
Dear Anand,

I reproduce the following quote from Bhagavan, that is potential enough to blast ones hold on freewill and destiny.

"The waking state also is equivalent to a dream, only that the Waking is long and a dream is short; other than this there is no difference. Just as waking happenings seem real while awake, so do those in a dream while dreaming"

So, Anand, for whom is this freewill and destiny? It is either to the one who is Sleep dreaming or who is Waking dreaming. Do we worry about the destiny of a character in a movie? Do we worry about the exercise of freewill by a character in a movie?

So when we know, all this to be a dream, what matters about freewill or destiny? it is just dream, and nothing else!

Infact, this is also being told to you in your dream only, this also is just dream, but this awakening is happening due to the grace of your Self, which is none but Bhagavan himself.

If you truly understand this, then the question about freewill and destiny can never haunt you, for you will know very clearly that it is just a mirage, or a shadow. You will not worry about what is going to happen, what to do or what not todo, etc...
you will not even bother whether you will be Self Realised or would you even care much to put efforts to become Self Realised. Does it help you if you enact as "Jnaneshwar" or "Ramana Maharshi" in a movie? does the enacting of attainment of Self Realisation in a movie help you in any way? No, therefore, realise this truth and.... (I do not want to also add "just Be", as by this too, one will start building ideas, as to what "Just Being" is)

Having said this, till one is completely awake(complete conviction),  one has to keep doing ones Swadharma, consciously, with awareness.

Salutations to Bhagavan
« Last Edit: March 13, 2012, 06:45:10 AM by Nagaraj »
If one's mind has peace, the whole world will appear peaceful.

~ Sri Bhagavan

Anand Sundaram

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Re: Free Will and Destiny
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2012, 08:09:56 PM »
dear Nagaraj Sir,
Ever since I begun reading on Bhagavan and  Arunachala in 1985 , I started feeling the world as a dream as you mentioned.
Only in certain periods of life involving deep pain ,did this feeling ever disappear.
I still have a dream like perception of the world but somehow I am able to reconsile the happenings of the world ,with this dream like perception.
I however with this dream like perception have not attained mental calmness and am prone to worry about future happenings both personally and professionally.
Further , I do wonder how this perception like dream can be self enquiry or aid to self enquiry since this is naturally occuring and Bhagavan stressed on practice - but here its a passive occurence.
Regards,
Anand.