Author Topic: Upadesha Saram  (Read 74086 times)

matthias

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #90 on: December 04, 2008, 11:23:06 PM »
I will write from my personal experience like usual:

this verse means for me that when the mind is one pointed and concentrated and you take the mind to look for the mind...then you see that there is an absence of mind..instead there is a big shining nothing (an openess that simply repeats: "yes" or "I-I-I")...... the deeper you look into this the more untouchable and absent it is....and hten there is just no-mind and this no-mind is the nature of mind....

this is in fact the beginning of the true "inner" spiritual path I guess...

in my case this looking into the self comes and goes from times...it is hard to tell if I have any control about it, or if it is in the hand of god....but anyway the more I look at it the more stable it becomes...and slowly I start to recognize that there is an uninterrupted conciousness, self-shining, one, I would not say blissfull but cheerfull or bright...

when my mind is resting inside this (what ever it may be, I guess it is the self or at least a first emanation of it) then I can say with all of my heart and integrety that this is what they call "self-sufficient" mind, or shikantaza in zen buddhism (this is seen as the beginning of mediation, before it is concentration)...

this is mind that needs nothing else to achive then mind alone...
the mind at rest.....
the vasanas are absent, thoughts may come or not, it is not interessting anymore...the only thing that is interessting is simply what is...simply this moment...anyting else is seen clearly as an obstruction to peace and happiness..

one thing to mention is also that this is without any kind of mental activity (I do not have to hold on to it or to "make" it or reproduce it, or to meditate upon it etc...)

it is simply there, just there, and when it is absent or not seen, then it is becaus eI have forgotten it, I can say this because is never changes, it is always the same "knowing" "seeing" or whatever...


love silence..

PS: please if you bring the english verses in correct order and in a nice form I would like to have a draft of it too...I found it incredible beautiful to read...and also to participate a little



Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #91 on: December 05, 2008, 10:03:51 AM »
In Verse 17, Bhagavan Ramana says: If you question or search the
'form' of the mind, there is no such thing as 'mind.'  Mind has no
tangible or gross form.  It is insubstantial, non-gross, subtle and formless.  Then what is mind?  It is in the form of "energy" that is in the form
of "waves"!  Since it is in the form of energy, wavelike, it can go anywhere, even when your senses are shut off!  This produces "thoughts" which
are again formless, insubstantial, non-gross and wavelike.  Only when
it results in 'actions' it becomes substantial, form-ful, gross, and tangible. 

When Annamalai Swami asked Bhagavan Ramana, whether he could
mediate with eyes closed, Bhagavan Ramana said that in that case,
the mind will act more vigorously, like a ball thrown at wall, by standing
closer to that wall!

How the mind acts like waves?  We have got innumerable examples.
It will act even when sense-organs are shut off! As in dreams.
Kekule, a famous scientist in organic chemistry, found the cyclic
structure of benzene, while he was sleeping!  He got up and wrote out
the structure of benzene, because he found in his sleep that six serpents
are in circular form, catching each others tails!  His eyes were not open
at that time.  The mind has acted in the form of waves, cutting across
the senses.   Beethovan composed the famous Ninth Symphony, but he
was deaf!  He could not hear it with his own ears, but he composed the
symphony!  Milton wrote Paradise Lost, when he was blind!

Then comes, the next idea.  How can this be a direct path?  That is
enquiry into the form of mind?  When the mind is enquired upon, it
goes back into the Self, and gets absorbed.  The mind, thoughts are
all Maya, Sakti.  When Sakti goes back into Siva, the there is no
dancing and loitering of Sakti. Even in Raja Yoga, they say that the
entire process is raising the sakti from Mooladhara and makes her
go into the Sahasrara, and lie in the bed, in the company of Siva, the
Brahman and the Raja Yogi puts a screen around their bed and comes back!  Kindly see Sri Soundarya Lahari.

So, mind = formless = Maya = Sakti = waves = all dancing of electrons!

And, the Self = form-ful = Siva = Brahman = Matter = Proton! 

Bhagavan Ramana says in Who am I? the following things about
the mind.

1. It is a wondrous Sakti, in Atma Swarupa.

2. It is formless and through thoughts it starts its operation.

3. When the mind is not there, there is no World, Jagat, and there is
     Ananda.

4. When the mind is there, that is, when it is active, there is World,
    Jagat  and there is sorrow, Dhukka.   

5. When Siva, Brahman, the Self, is like shade, the mind, Maya,
     Sakti is like heat of the sun.  People who are in shade goes into
     the sun, and unable to bear the heat, comes back to the shade.
     The Jnani never leaves the shade.

6.   Be Still or Summa Iru in Tamil, is nothing but absorbing the mind
      in Atma.

7.   Wisdom insight is where nothing appears in the mind.

8.  Non attachment is not seeking anything from outside.

9.  Vichara or enquiry is keeping the mind within the Self.

10. If one controls the mind, he can be anywhere he likes.

Arunachala Siva.       

Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #92 on: December 05, 2008, 10:20:28 AM »
Verse 17 in Tamil reads as under:

Manathin Uruvai Maravathu Uchava,
Manam Ena Onrilai Undhipara!
Margam Ner Arkum Undhipara!

(Manthin Uruvai -  The form of mind;
Mravathu - without fail or without forgetting; unceasingly;
Uchava -  When questioned or enquried upon; When scanned;
Manam Ena Onrilai - There is no such thing as mind;
Maragam- the Way; Ner-direct; Arkum - for anyone.)

Arthur Osborne's translation is as under:

When unceasingly the mind
Scans its own form
There is nothing of the kind.
For everyone
This Path direct is open.

Bhagavan Ramana has given a couple of examples about the nature
of mind and how it would run away, when questioned upon.  There
was a wedding.  A stranger, with the purpose of having good food and
treatement in the wedding, acted as if he is quite known to the bride
groom's side.  For someone, he had said that he is quite known to the
bride's side.  When both the parties came together and asked him,
he took to his heels!   A thief on the road, when was about to be caught,
was asking others, 'Where is the thief? Where is the thief?' like other
people and was 'searching' for the thief.  When the policemen came
and asked: Where is the thief?, he developed cold feet and took to
his heels! 
   
Arunachala Siva.
   

Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #93 on: December 05, 2008, 02:46:07 PM »
Dear Matthias,

skrudai, has answered your points.  As regards English rendering of
Upadesa Saram, I have given in each verse, (so far 17 have been
initiated and I have written for each post) both Tamil and English
versions.  You may go through them, if necessary with print outs.

As regards, "sufficiency of the mind", this is a state, where at least
at that time, the individual does not seek anything.  It is mentioned
in Pure Land School, as the mind which looks at emptiness, within.
However, Sankara and Bhagavan Ramana do not stop with this.  They
say that the Self or Brahman or Atman is not emptiness, but is Effulgence.
And the "sufficiency of the mind", is not "no-mind state" or Pure Mind,
as mentioned by them.  Here the mind is not there and the Self Witnesses
everything.

Arunachala Siva.     

matthias

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #94 on: December 05, 2008, 11:11:35 PM »
thank you for the wonderfull answers....


Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #95 on: December 07, 2008, 09:49:58 AM »
While in Verse 17, Bhagavan Ramana mentioned that there is no
such thing as mind, and there is no form for the mind.  The mind
is a concept of energy, insubstantial, non-gross and formless.

In Verse 18, Bhagavan Ramana speaks about the thoughts.  These
thoughts spring forth from the mind.  The thoughts are also without
form, they are energy and there are non-gross. 

Bhagavan Ramana describes the thoughts in many places in Who am I?

Under Q 8 of Sivaprakasam Pillai, Bhagavan Ramana says that the mind
which is a wondrous power, makes the formation of thoughts.  He
further says, the Jagat is not apart from thoughts.  This is called Drishti
Srishti Vada of Advaita, as propounded by Sankara.  Thoughts cause the
world, the world is not there when there are no thoughts.  Like spider,
spinning a web around it, from it, the mind spins the world!  Like a spider,
withdraws the web,the mind withdraws the world, when it is not functioning!

Under Q 9, Bhagavan Ramana says, that the mind is nothing but "I thought".  In fact this is the first thought before any other thought arises.
It is not there in sleep.  Under Q 10, He says that ony by asking, Who am I?
the mind can be controlled/annihilated.   If one asks, whenever there is
thought, he will get a reply, 'it is for me.'  When he asks, 'Who am I?
this enquriy will destroy that thought.  Finally, even I thought will burn
out, like the stick that stirs the funeral pyre.

Under Q 11, Bhagavan Ramana says, that one should not try to acutalize
these thoughts, but should ask only "Whence these thoughts?"  With
this questions, the thoughts comprising of names and forms will disappear.

Under Q 12, Bhagavan Ramana says that thoughts expand endlessly,
when they go outwards.  Like when one throws a stone in to a tank,
the ripples start formating.  It expands, and each ripple or thought becomes weaker and weaker.  Like this, thoughts become weaker and
weaker but are plentiful.  For this Bhagavan Ramana says, "have one thought, Ekakrata."  This gives strength to the mind, and Atma Vichara
becomes easier.

(to be contd.)

Arunachala Siva.
         

Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #96 on: December 07, 2008, 10:01:02 AM »
Verse 18 continues....

Let us see further aspects of answers given by Bhagavan Ramana,
under Who am I?

Under Q 14, Bhagavan says about 'vasanas'.  He says that there is nothing
like good mind and bad mind, and there are only good vasanas and bad
vasanas.

Under Q 15, Bhagavan says that as long as there are vasanas, please
do vichara, through, Who am I?   As and when these thoughts/vasanas
appear, please crush them at their birth place, by the question, Who am I?
Here is where, the question of chitta suddhi comes.  Let there be any
number of thoughts.  Like soldiers from an enemy fortress.  Kill them,
each one of them, and you will own the fortress.  This constant fighting
against the thoughts till the fortress becomes your own, is the process
of chitta suddhi.

Under Q 19, Bhagavan Ramana describes 'vairagya'.  What is this
vairagya or non attachment?  This is crushing each thought, as it
appears, at its birth place.

Under Q 22, Bhagavan Ramana says about the dream state and wakeful
state.  In both the states, thoughts appear as names and forms.  Perhaps,
the thoughts in the dream state, might also include the vasanas, tendencies.

Under Q 24, Bhagavan Ramana says that staying with Atma is like
staying in the shade.  Going out to the world, is like getting scorched
in the hot sun.  Everyone likes to be in shade.  But due to ignorance,
he goes in the hot sun and comes back, when scorched.  The Jnani
is always in the shade.    He repeats what He had said in the beginning:
When there are no thoughts, there is no world, and there is happiness.  When  there are thoughts, there is world and with it, the misery!

to be contd.

Arunachala Siva. 

Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #97 on: December 07, 2008, 10:11:54 AM »
Verse 18 continued....

On self-enquriy, Bhagavan Ramana has prescribed a few methods,
depending upon the situation/devotees.  When Annamalai Swami
wanted to stay alone and meditate in Palakottu, He told him to
chant, 'Siva, Siva.'  He told Naryana Iyer, to chant Rama, Rama.
When Annamalai Swami, complained to Him, that he had been suddenly
having lustful thoughts on women, and that he had been fasting, Bhagavan
Ramana asked him, "What is the use of fasting?"  The very repeititon of
the thoughts, that he had had sex thoughts would add only to his misery.
Instead, Bhagavan Ramana said:  "By constantly regretting about the
thoughts of lust, would only bring about the same thought.  Instead,
ask, 'For whom, is this thought?'  It is for me.  Then, 'ask who am I?'

For Lakshmanaswami and Wolter Kiers, He directly suggested Self enquiry.  No Japas and mantras.  For Papaji, He directed him, only to seek Krishna
within and not seek Krishna outside, in visions.  For Lakshmana Sarma,
WHO, Bhagavan Ramana said:  You chant Sad Darsanam and meditate
upon each verse.  For Sri Sadhu Om, also He directed to study Sad
Darsanam.  He permitted Muruganar to go on writing many many beautfiul verses, in Tamil, stating that, such composition would be his sadhana!
Like these, for thoughts killing and keeping one thought instead of many many thoughts, Bhagavan Ramana prescribed different methods.

Verse 18, in Tamil:

Ennangale manam yavinum Nan enum,
Enname moolam am Undhipara,
Yan am manam enal Undhipara!

(Ennangal - thoughts.  Nan enum ennam - I thought.
moolam - root.  I is the mind, I is the first thought.)

Arunachala Siva.         

Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #98 on: December 07, 2008, 10:39:40 AM »
Osborne's translation of Verse 18:

Thoughts alone make up the mind.
And of all thoughts, the 'I' thought is the root.
What is called mind, is but the notion, 'I'.

Verse 19 in Tamil:

Nan enru ezhumidam edhu ena naada uN
Nan thalai saindhitum Undhipara,
Jnana Vicharam idhu Undhipara!

(Nan - I. ezhumidam - the place whence it springs.
Edhu ena naada- if you question from which/where  it is, and seek the   Source.  UN Naan thalai saindhitum -= your I thought will fall back into
the Source, shamefully .Jnana Vicharam idhu - This is self enquiry.)

Osborne's translation:

When one turns within and searches,
When this 'I' thought arises,
The shamed 'I'  thought vanishes --
And Wisdom's quest begins.

Bhagavan Ramana has said, that the 'I' thought is like a thief.  With
other thoughts, it would not go.  A thief cannot catch a thief.  When
the policeman arrives, the thief will take to his heels.  A mind/thought
is also like a thief.  Another thought/thief cannot catch it.  The Self enquiry,
that is, asking, for "whom is this thought?", is the policeman.  Upon seeing the policeman will thief will disappear.  It is again like the fellow who came
for a free lunch in a wedding, saying that he is a close relative of bride's
people or bridegroom's people.  Upon enquiry, the fellow will disappear.

Someone came with a shocking confession to Bhagavan Ramana.  He said
that his enamoured by a woman in the neighbourhood, who has got breasts like champagne-glasses.  He is not able to overcome lustful thoughts about her.  Bhagavan Ramana said:  There are two ways.  One
is to consummate your lust with her. Or, ask, for whom these thoughts are? Do not go on harping the thoughts.  Bhagavan Ramana has said
already in Who am I? : When one actualizes the thoughts that he likes or
when someone whom you hate, suffers, in both the cases, after completion, the mind comes back to Atma and enjoys Atma suka.

In this verse, the words, 'Ezhum idam', 'from where' the thoughts arise,
give room for two interpretations. 

1. From where, means the "place", that is Heart Centre, for seekers.
2. From which, means the "Substance", the Brahman, is for advanced seekers.     

The 'I thought' springs from Heart Centre, the place for inital seekers.
The 'I thought' springs from Heart, or Brahman, the Substance for
advanced seekers.

Arunachala Siva.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #99 on: December 07, 2008, 10:59:44 AM »
Verse 20 in Tamil reads as under:

Nan onru thanathu Nan-Nan enru onrathu,
Than- aga thondrume Undhipara,
Than athu, poonram am Undhiapara!

(Nan onru - this I thought. thanathu - in that place. Nan-Nan enru
onrathu, - the sphurana of "I-I"    Than-aga thondrume - will
be experienced of its own accord. Than-athu, that 'I-I'. Poonram -
Poornam, the Infinite, the One without second.)

Osborne's translation:

Where this 'I' notion fades
Now there as I as I, arises,
The One, the very Self. The Infinite.

The Tamil words, Nan and Than, refer to the individual soul, I thought,
and the Supreme Being, Brahman, the Self.  These words are peculiar
to Tamil.  In fact, Bhagavan never knew the word Brahman, till He
came to Tiruvannamalai and till He read some Vedanta books brought
by Pazhaniswami, from the town.   Manikkavachaga and Tayumanavar
also used the words, Nan and Than.  The English translators found it
quite difficult to translate these words.  Osborne and many others started
using, 'I' and 'I-I' and certain other translators tried  'i' and 'I'!

Bhagavan Ramana used these words first in Who am I? in 1902.
Under Question No. 11.  He says: "When 'Nan', 'I' curls up into the Heart,
this I thought which is the root of all other thoughts, will also go away,
and it remains as  'Than', "I-I" in the Heart.  Then the ego dies, and
everything in this universe will appear as Siva Swarupa!

Some over enthusiastic devotees also wanted to verify this "Than" in
the Heart Centre!  When one of them touched Bhagavan Ramana's
right chest, they in fact, heard the beats three times, with an interval!

Bhagavan Ramana also says that what is Real is Atma Swarupa only and
all these Jagat, Isvara and Jiva are imaginations, so long as, I thought
continues.   When I thought is killed, everything appears as Jagat, Isvara and Jiva. This Cosmic Consciousness is experienced upon Self
Realization.

Arunachala Siva.     

matthias

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #100 on: December 13, 2008, 12:44:40 AM »
verse 17

a very wondefull verse, and beyond tradition, land, origin or whatever...

turn within and look for the mind, you wil not find one..

it is true, if we look closely, if we focus on what is inside, if we focus on ourself, the one who is alive or who simply is right now, then there is nothing, simple open all embracing awereness, no beginning no end

you look for it one pointed, and then you simply see that there is no point at all...just space...

this sight of things, this inner understanding of who we are is deeply healing, it heals the whole organisim from inside out...
I think that no meditation can clean and heal you like this insight..no puja, no prayer, no good deeds....

to see that there is nobody, that there is no such thing as mind (a mind that is substancial or essential) is a very high form of sadhana
and pure grace of course...

peace peace peace

Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #101 on: December 13, 2008, 01:14:52 PM »
Dear Matthias,

You are correct.  That is why, "Who am I?"  (the prose form of Upadeasa
Saram, even though it is not a literal translation, but the purport being
one and the same) is the most read book, after the Bible, the Koran and
the Bhagavad Gita.  While the other three is read only by specific followers
of a specific religion, Who am I? is read by everyone.  It is beyond
all religions and people from Canada/Peru to Japan/Sydney are reading it.
Bhagavan Ramana has never said anything other than this. His various
forms of Upadesa are having the same meaning.  To Akhilandamma, a
non-Brahmin, who was giving Him food in the Hills, asked for an Upadesa.
The other devotees said to her on a full moon day:  Please ask Bhagavan
some 'initiation' today.  Today is the auspicious full moon day!"  Bhagavan
Ramana came after his monthly shave and was sitting on a stone slab.
He had not even taken bath!  Akhilandamma came to Him and asked:
Tell me something!  Bhagavan Ramana said: "What is there to tell?
Please do not leave 'you!"  One should not leave the 'I' within him and
that is the summum bonum of everything!

Arunachala Siva.

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #102 on: December 20, 2008, 10:42:25 PM »
Dear Srk Udai,
                   The transliteration is so excellent that it does not require further comment.
I have two doubts,may be mistakes while typing.1) In verse 28 you typed it as apoorna but i think it is poorna.
2) In verse 28 you forgot to give the meaning of the words, vindati and eha.kindly clarify.   
pvssnraju

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #103 on: December 22, 2008, 04:55:20 PM »
Dear Srk Udai,
                   I think it is quite appropriate.

pvssnraju

Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #104 on: December 22, 2008, 06:19:21 PM »
Dear srkudai, Dr. Raju and others,

I was away from Bangalore and was in Tiruvannamalai on 20th, 21st
and 22nd, (till 2 PM).   I reached Bangalore around 6 PM this evening.
Your translations are excellent.  I shall post tomorrow, Tamil Version
from Verse 21 to 30 and Osborne's translation, with stories, if any.

Arunachala Siva.