Author Topic: Upadesha Saram  (Read 80653 times)

matthias

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #60 on: November 23, 2008, 11:54:33 PM »
ego is the constant chatter, the blabla----but it can be seen, so it canot be the seer....that is the ancient neti neti...not this not that...we can actually see the ego so we are not touched by it..

regarding the ego as the bad enemy is taking a position, and taking positions is fueling the ego...so the best thing to do is to meditate and search for the self....the more one is used to meditation the more he will relaxe into the witness, a simple feeling of IAM willa rise, this feeling is there with thoughts without thought...it is before it, simply shining and knowing..to meditate is to surrender to this IAM, feel(see,taste etc.) it more and more....the more one rests in this IAM, the more the small I is forgotten

it is dangerous to thing that No-Mind, or enlightment is total absence of thoughts, for some souls who are incredible absorbed in the god may have no more thoughts.....I for myself know that my job is to shine as the self more and more and do not waste time to deal with thoughts, because to surpress thoughts is a form of controll and comes from the ego...the art is to see and surrender to what is not touhed by silence or thoughts...this is the supreme silence, the self...and it needs alot of training and meditation to stay as that in all circumstances and to grow into the natural state....and one day the ego jsut drops...(but I do htink that there are still thougts, but they are seen as what they are, totally empty, without own energy, no obstruction, and no help...just thoughts, like breathing is just breathing tinking is just thinking, the self is forever untouched by it)

please clearify this

Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #61 on: November 24, 2008, 11:09:40 AM »
Dear Ramanaduli,

For most of us Ego is our master.  Bhagavan Ramana says control
the ego/mind and make it your servant.  Then the ego will be at
our service.  This state is called Pure Ego or Pure Mind, Suddha Manas.
All Brahmajnanis operate with this Pure Mind.  Bhagavan Ramana
says, it is like a burnt rope.  It does not harm others nor can it be
used for tying things.

Arunachala Siva.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #62 on: November 24, 2008, 11:14:45 AM »
Dear Matthias,

As you have said, the no-mind state is not dangerous.  Thoughtless
state is not dangerous.  The thoughless state is where the Self
operates with all its glory.  It does the work in office,  it eats the food,
it goes to cinema or watch TV.  This is the state where Brahma Jnanis
ever stay.

Dear srkudai,

Yes. Ego is the role playing Ravana, but the Self is the actor in the
real world.  When the play is over, you are the Self.

Arunachala Siva.

matthias

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #63 on: November 24, 2008, 03:49:35 PM »
hmm I did mean something else..

I said that I think that the state called no-mind or thoughless...is not really thoughtless....thoughts may arise but ttere is no one to whom they arise.....they lost their substance and are not longer a hindrance for the all illuminating self....but still they rise and fall...like breathing comes and goes...in fact thoughts are just thoughts..natural, the unnatural is the identification

and I said that if this is a right point then it is dangerous to believe that enlightment or liberation is a state without thinking....because in this case one is in bondage when thoughts arise but I do not believe this, I think one is in bondage if thoughts arise and there is identification with the thoughts...thoughts cna come and go, breath can come and go, sleep comes and goes....but we are free of this...so tis means that sleeping arises, thinking arises, breating arises but we are not longer identified with it..

please clearify

Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #64 on: November 24, 2008, 04:09:17 PM »
Dear Matthias,

I saw your clarification.  In the No-mind state (it is not thoughtless
state, because the term would be self contradictory), thoughts do
arise, for the purpose of doing good things, helping others, guiding
the disciples and for routine activities like bathing, nature calls, eating
food etc.,  These are good.  Jnanis in 'no mind' state did all the work
of preaching and writing books.

Your second paragraph.  Such thoughts are not dangerous.  Because
it does no harm, like a burnt rope or a killed snake.

Arunachala Siva.

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #65 on: November 24, 2008, 04:58:54 PM »
Dear Subramanian,
                         In no mind state "I" thought loses it's identity with the body,thoughts,sense perception.Because there is no identity
with anything Pure "I"thought is not binding as a burnt rope is not binding as you rightly said.The beauty of no mind state is that it reflects
the light of awareness of Pure consciousness even when we are engaged in work in the phenomenal reality.Bhagawan said no mind state
is "self" itself for all practical purposes.
pvssnraju

Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #66 on: November 24, 2008, 05:13:43 PM »
Dear Dr. Raju,

I agree with you.  The No-mind and no-thought concepts confound
most of us.  Basically we are all afraid that no-mind state is a
fractured mind state of a schizophrenic.  No-mind state gives rise
to Pure Mind, Suddha Manas, and no-thought state gives rise
to Pure Thought.  It is from the Self, that gives rise to activities
that help others for a Jnani.  Sankara composed great Vedantic
literature and Bhagavan Ramana composed Atma Jnana literature
from this Pure Mind. I was only clarifying Matthias' views regarding
'dangerousness of the thoughts after thoughtless state.

Arunachala Siva.   

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #67 on: November 24, 2008, 05:34:53 PM »
Dear Srk Udai,
                   As you pointed out mind is a dead entity and we are imposing life upon it and animating it.Withdrawing that life force which we have imposed on the mind
is the goal of spiritual sadhana.
pvssnraju

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #68 on: November 24, 2008, 07:18:48 PM »
Dear Srk Udai,
                   Sadhana is only for those who at least doubt whether their role in the phenomena is real.If they are badly idenfied with the role
due to forgetfulness of their nature no body compels them to change their attitude.Let them enjoy their role.
pvssnraju

Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #69 on: November 25, 2008, 10:39:56 AM »
Dear Dr. Raju and srkudai,

One Siddhar has made a two line verse:

If the "neecha", the mind. the lowly vanishes,
The mind is itself Isa, Siva.

Arunachala Siva.

matthias

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #70 on: November 25, 2008, 11:07:56 PM »
pranajama in yoga or samatha in tibetan buddhism or joriki in zen buddhism is a means to calm down the mind and to train the ability to focus on one thing....breath...(in fact pranajama goes a little deeper then the others, but the others are more to the point)

japa is better then this practices because it is without body...just mind...

but both is just an aid...

vipassana (buddhism) and vichara (at the beginning of it) is analytic meditation....and the previous two are just aids to stay with an analytical meditation for a long time....

but in fact the art is to taste the self, and stay in it....sometimes we forget it and then this meditation are aids to see clear again...

but in fact there is no meditation or other technique that can reveal the self (I think this is always grace), meditation is just to see it once and to stabilize it...or get used to it

at the end it never happened anyway

nobody going nowhere

Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #71 on: November 26, 2008, 10:40:58 AM »
Dear Matthias,

Yes.  Nothing ever happens!   Only the happenstance of the objective
world/subjective experience, is removed!

Dear srkudai,

Thanks.  There are such gems in Panchadasi.  We have to be ever
thankful to Suresvara for his Panchadasi and Manasollasa.  Even
though at some places, it is pedantic and dogmatic, there are simple
verses like these, which compensate for the boredom of pedantism.
I have to look into my books for these, since my posts have been pruned!

Arunachala Siva.
 

Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #72 on: November 28, 2008, 03:13:02 PM »
Verse 11 speaks about the control of mind, through breath-control.
We have now come to the plateu from the Everest.  Bhagavan Ramana
here, speaks about the ways to control the wavering and oscillating
mind.  He speaks about 'breath control' here.

Bhagavan Ramana has stressed three ways to control the mind,
in Who am I?  Remember, these are all for 'control' of mind and
not for its 'destruction'.  To Sivaprakasam Pillai, He said clearly,
that 'pranayama', worship of gods outside, and taking sattvic
food in moderate quantities are the aids for control of mind.  Self
Enquiry is for destruction of the mind.

Bhagavan Ramana never insisted any of these as 'must'.  He said
that the devotees can follow these paths for control of mind, and then
eventually come to the royal path of self enquiry.  He permitted the
Western devotees, to continue the non-vegetarian food, (outside
the Asram) and then try to work out how to switch over to vegetarian
food. 

Aruthur Osborne, in his book, The Life and the Quest, narrates his
difficulties.  He stopped non-vegetarian food, and asked Lucia Osborne
not to cook any non vegetarian food, at least for his consumption.
Later, in Madras, when he was working as an editor of a news paper,
writing book reviews, he used to go once in a week outside home, with
a craving for non-vegetarian food!  He used to go to a restaurant,
and order chicken and eat.  After sometime, he could not bear the
'sight' of chicks crying on his plate, and so he ordered for fish,
since Bengali brahmins, he has read in SRK's books, would eat
fish stating that "this is plantain" from Hoogly given by Mother!
Later after some months, Osborne totally switched over to vegetarian
food and later when he went later to Kolkota as a Head Master of a school,
he resisted eating fish!

Once a devotee, may be a Westerner, argued that even vegetables
and cow's milk are non vegetarian!  Bhagavan Ramana said that
these are from 'nivritti' of plants and cows, that is 'their relief'
and so it did not matter.  When a devotee pursued the argument,
He said:  Look, even the slab on which you are sitting are having
life and sitting on it, would be a 'killing'.  The Western devotee was
perplexed.  Bhagavan Ramana clarified:  The slabs contains the atoms
and electrons of silica, (Silicon Carbide), where electrons are constantly
rotating around the protons, and the atoms themselves are in constantly
moving from hither and thither.  Hence the 'movement' denotes life
and you cannot sit on the slab.  Then the devotee kept quiet!

Verse 11: Tamil.

VaLiyuL adkka valai padu put* pol,
ULamum odunguru Undhi para,
Odukka upayam idhu Undhi para.

(* PuL - coming as Put in Tamil poetry, means bird.  If it is pronounced
as Pul, it means grass.  The grass caught in a wind, oscillates,
but never gets trapped!  It remains after the wind has blown out.
So this breath control is only a temporary aid.)

Like the bird caught up in a net, the mind gets trapped in the
control of breath, and this is an aid.   

(Source: Upadesa Undiyar, Tamil. Bhagavan Ramana.  The Life and the
Quest, Arthur Osborne. Sri Ramansramam.)

Arunachala Siva.

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #73 on: November 28, 2008, 03:32:06 PM »
Upadesa Saram: verse 11

Meaning:- The mind may be subdued by by regulating the breath,just as a bird is restrained when caught in a net.

Comment:-Pranayama is the science of breath.Mind is accustomed to stray in nonself leaving it's source the "self".

To control such a chaotic mind cultivating the prana (life force) makes the mind temporarily settled like a pond in

full moon light and mind for the first time tastes the bliss and happiness of thought free state while awake.

This tasting of bliss makes the aspirant certain that the nature of his being is bliss.So he pursues further to

establish in that state of bliss without any interruption.In this way pranayama is an aid in preparing the mind

of the aspirant to do self-enquiry.In pranayama only manolaya (temporary cessation of activity of the mind)

 happens and so annihilation of tendencies will not happen in pranayama.No radical transformation of the mind

 is possiblble in pranayama.It helps us to taste the bliss of thoughtless state of the mind as long as pranayama

lasts.Prnayama is an important Anga in Astanga Yoga.Body health and quality and length of life are profoundly

 affected positively due to pranayama.But when the breath (prana) comes out,the mind will also come out and

wander under the sway of tendencies as usual.So pranayama is mere aid for restraining the mind but will not

bring destruction of the mind.
pvssnraju

matthias

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #74 on: November 29, 2008, 01:49:33 PM »
pranajama or joriki or any other kind of meditation based on breating is neccessary for the beginner of any meditation practice, because the focus is not head but prana, chi, lung etc.

through meditation on breath the mind becomes calm (in joriki the zen meditation on breath, the practicioner is told to "taste" the breath.....and one realizes that breath-energy is mostly cooling....and it also cools down the mind)

after some days of practice you will sentence a strong connection to life itslef (one feels more life running through body and mind), and this meditaiton is healing in nature---after some more practice the breath is naturally not so fast, and more gentle, this gives the body the opportunity to rest (and also the mind)

I think a calm mind and body is essential for right practice and a good life...

another important fact of these meditations is that the skill called "concentration" is strenghtened, a very important skill of the mind because concentration is neccessary in our daily life (concentration on goals etc.) and also it is important for all the other sadhanas and meditations..

it is in this sence essential for the ordinary practicioner..

I always start my meditation with a simple counting of the breath, and feeling the cooling energy...then I slowly start to concentrate on concentration or the witness.....and finally I switch to a mantra and then I let go of the breath (and I increase the conentration on what is, or fromw here the "I" sense arises--sometimes you can feel it in the chest)...and everything is open and wide, full of a gentle light, this is how I usually start and end the day....