Author Topic: Upadesha Saram  (Read 69631 times)

matthias

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #45 on: November 21, 2008, 11:26:07 PM »
verse 9

(my girl took my upadesa saram with her, so I have to use the english version of dr raju)

I just can talk out of what I experienced, so this is not a comment.....

from time to time, when my mind is calm and clear, cool and resting then a single word or a single idea can be the last for some time....then when the mind stops, light is percieved, (still a dual notion, I never was the light, I always percieved it insight of me...still a subtile dualism)..

the light is growing with the silence, the more complete the silence is the more light is percieved...here is the abode of peace and happiness,but it cannot be the self, but at least a glimpse, a deeper look into the sublime beauty and peacefull nature of things....

these expereinces are the deepest I ever had, I never poceeded further then this...and it is impossible to stay there long for me...
Iam not totaly sure what it means, but anyway it is good and will have any sort of benefit

sometimes this light penetrates 10 or 20 minutes and then ceases, just an expereince but indeed a very uplifting one


........

in addition

like Subramanian recommended I started the mantra meditation again, I use this time shivoham bhavana, as it is (as mentioned in verse eight) a better meditation, I sit first and do simply breathing in and out, counting the breath 1,2,3,4 etc.. and I relaxe body and then mind...when Iam calm I start with the mantra....

someitmes I come very close to this sublime state, and then the mantra also gets charged, and when I formulate it clearly it takes me  veryclose to silence and light..just repeating the two words....I think this could be very helpful for centralizing and "remembering"...

« Last Edit: November 21, 2008, 11:28:53 PM by matthias »

Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #46 on: November 22, 2008, 10:48:40 AM »
Dear Matthias,

Your meditation of Sivoham or Siva-bhava is good since you are speaking
about good results.  It suits you.  You may continue.  Regarding the
"beauty of nature and things",  you perceive that due to the Self
within, which is light.  The light is "experienced" and not "perceived."
This is also good.

Dear All,

This is what is explained further in Verse 9.  The Sad-bhava, with its strength, takes one to the Isa-bhava, or Parabhakti.  This is what Sri Ramakrishna also used to describe.  This Sad-bhava or Isa-bhava which is the essence of Parabhakti gives one, the powers of perceiving everything as Isvara, or forms of Isvara.  Sri Dakshinamoorthy Stotram calls it as
Isvaratvam, in the last verse.

Once when Vilacheri Ranga Iyer, who was a class mate of Bhagavan
Ramana, in school in Tiruchuzhi and also in Madurai, came to see
Bhagavan Ramana.  He was already married and having children and
he did not have a suitable joy to earn income for family.  He went for
interviews in Madras, a couple of times, but without success. One day,
when he was sleeping outside the Cave, Bhagavan Ramana asked him
to get up around 3 am for swimming and bathing in the adjoining tank
on the Hills.  He rose and Bhagavan Ramana looked at him intently
for a while.  Suddenly, Iyer started seeing, the Cave, the things inside
the Cave, the Hills, the trees and plants as Bhagavan Ramana.  Everywhere, Bhagavan Ramana's smiling face appeared.  This lasted
for a few minutes.  This is the glimpse of Isvaratvam, or Being Siva,
after intense bhava balam or bhava phalam. coming out of Para bhakti.

Verse 9: (in Tamil)

Bhava balathinal bhavanateeta Sad
Bhavathu iruthale Undhipara,
Para-bhakti tattvam Undhipara!

Arthur Osborne's translation reads:

Abidance in Pure Being,
Transcending thought through love intense,
Is the very essence,
Of Supreme Devotion.

Arunachala Siva.     
   

ramanaduli

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #47 on: November 22, 2008, 05:13:41 PM »
Dear Sirs,

In verse 8 it is said that being with God within is the best meditaton without any separatness. But in Bhakti marga, most of the saints see them, they are separated. They beg for God's
darshan, want him to see and talk. Does it not meditation? In ashtapathi, Jayadeva sings as Krishna is outside. I think, some bhakta want Him to worship in that way and have satisfaction
by singing His glory.  But in Gopika Geetham, first Gopis feel His separateness< they search and cry at last they find HIM in their heart. Due to their ego they cannot find but when they
left their ego they find Krishna in their heart as said in the 8 verse.


Ramanaduli

Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #48 on: November 23, 2008, 11:32:36 AM »
Dear srkudai,

For the sincere seekers, which most of us are, the Self in the Heart
Centre, is experienced. So there is an Experiencer, the individual
soul and the experience, the Self.  When  self enquiry is complete,
then the individual soul merges into the Self, and it is Self realization.
Thereafter, there is no experiencer, the individual soul and there is
only the Experience, the Self. 

When some one wanted to know from Bhagavan Ramana, "What is
the difference between jnani and ajnani, Bhagavan Ramana replied
humourously, that there is no jnani or ajnani and there is only
jnanam.

Jnani  - the Experienced.
Ajnani - the Experiencer. (of worldly pleasures and then on
                                     maturity, the Self within.)
Jnanam - the Experience!

Again, when someone asked  how Jnani can explain his Experience,
Bhagavan Ramana said:

The Jnani cannot explain anthing to anyone.  Because there is nothing
apart from him!

The Ajnani cannot understand because he does not have experience
             to understand.

Hence there is only Jnanam and one should understand it within.

Saint Tayumanavar has also sung:

If it becomes That, what can it say, because it is only That!

(Adhvanal, adhuvahum, adhu enna sollum?)

Arunachala Siva.

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #49 on: November 23, 2008, 12:37:02 PM »
Dear Srk Udai,
                   As you have rightly pointed out the crux of whole problem lies in mistaking "I" thought as real self.Adjuncts or actions per se
are neither good nor bad.They are valuable tools given to us by the existence but when we use them with the prevailing wrong identity
their function becomes abnormal because "I" thought connects to every thought and perception happening in the mind and contaminates
them causing havoc in daily life which is reflected physically also in the society and with close scrutiny we can find that this wrong identity
is the basic problem of humanity and self-enquiry is the solution for it.
pvssnraju

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #50 on: November 23, 2008, 01:47:48 PM »
Upadesa Saram: Verse 10

Meaning:- Having subsided in the place of rising in one's own source of real self is an action (karma) without desire,Bhakti (devotion),that is Yoga (union

with God), Jnana (true knowledge).

Comment:- A conscious particle from the spiritual heart enters the brain and when it identifies with the body it becomes the "I "thought

and creates the illusion of individual self which inhabits the body and identifies itself with all thoughts and perceptions.Upadesa literally means

bringing back a thing to it's place of origin or source.So the goal of self-enquiry is to bring back this conscious particle which straying with the help of adjuncts in the

nonself  to it's source which is spiritual heart.Self-Enquiry reverses the process of"I" thought getting identified with

thoughts and perceptions.If one can break the connection between  "I" thought and thoughts and perceptions it identifies with, then the

"I" thought itself will subside and finally disappear.This can be done by holding on to "I" thought i.e inner feeling of "I" or "I am" and excluding

all other thoughts.If one can keep attention to the inner feeling of "I" then this conscious particle dissociates from the adjuncts.Then the power

of self pulls the "I" thought back into the heart centre and eventually destroys it so completely that it never raises again.When this happens the

concept of individual self is destroyed once and forever,only self remains.Thus mind remains subsided in the source of real self from which it has

risen takes the form of Atmakara Vritti and that is the culminating point of Karma Yoga (the path of desireless action),Bhakti Yoga (The path of devotion)

Raja Yoga with the methods of mind control and the Jnana Yoga (the path of knowledge through self-enquiry,atma vichara).
pvssnraju

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #51 on: November 23, 2008, 03:38:31 PM »
Summary of first ten verses of Upadesa Saram:-

Bhagawan's method of destroying the concept of individual self which is usually called as manonasa or destuction of the mind is scientific

and unlike in other methods which are dependent on thought which itself is product of self ignorance, uses awareness in bringing back

the conscious particle that is apparently imprisoned in ego and it's tendencies, to it's source of spiritual heart and make it to permanently

abide there so that it never rises as ego again.In this way his approach to Truth is nontraditional and the outlook is above beyond all religions

and it is relevant to entire humanity irrespective of their religious background.What is required here is intense and passionate longing

for Truth and it will lead us to the Truth if we do self-enquiry with such a passion as a drowning man struggles for air.However even

though his approach is nontraditional, he never condemned tradition and instead made best use of it by utilising it for the preparation

of the mind for making it fit to do self-enquiry.In this endeavour he integrated Karma,Bhakti,Raja and Jnana yogas.In the first ten verses of

Upadesa Saram he described in detail how Karma Yoga and Bhakti Yoga aid in Self-abidance.

Every human being is born with self-ignorance.So he has defects (doshas) of 1) doership which results in action with desire with eye on the fruit of

desire(sakama karma) 2)vibhakti (nondevotion to his real self i.e God) 3)Viyoga (the feeling of separation from the rest other than his body-mind

complex and so he feels that the world is separate and contrary to him and he feels that God is apart from him.4)Ignorance (not knowing the

nature of his self.Because i am confining myself to summarise first 10 verses i will elaborate only on kama yoga and Bhakti yoga with relevance to Bhagawan's

teaching in Upadesa Saram.All these defects occur to "I" thought only.

Karma Yoga to relieve the dosha of sakama karma:- In sakama karma there is the sense of doership with an eye on the fruit of action.

Sakama karma is an attempt to gain happiness in nonself,so sakama karma is born out of self-ignorance.Self-ignorance is insentient so sakama  karma is

insentient,jada and so it has no ability to direct or confer the fruit of action.The performer of the work is not the doer and so fruit of action

is not in his hands.Fruit of action perishes by enjoying it as pleasure or pain.But having perished thus the fruit of that action will still remain in the seed

form as liking to do such an action again and this is called tendency.So tendencies result from action with doership which encourages us for further

action thus throwing us into the sea of actions which obstructs our spiritual goal and we are lost in the sea of actions.So sakama karma is Patana

 karanam and Gati nirodhakam.So as an antidote to dosha of sakama karma Bhagawan is advising us not indulge in action and to do work expected

from you without any desire,without eye on fruit of action,without doership,to offer the fruit of action to God with surrender so that sense of

doership is nullified.This type of nishkama karma purifies the mind and it is an aid to keep the mind subsided in it's source.

Bhakti yoga:- Average human being is more devoted to the whims and fancies of his ego and tendencies and usually prays to God

to fulfil them rather than to his true self because he is self-ignorant.Even sakama puja,japa,dhyana does not purify the mind because the ego

is strengthened in these in the name of devotion.Puja,japa,dhyana are actions done by organs of body,speech,mind and they should be

done without sense of doership or desire,expectation,goal if the mind were to be purified.So devotion must also be desireless(nishkama)

so that mind is purified.If this is done with ananya bhava (I am he) the meditator himself becomes nonexistent by merging in the state of being

It is beyond the comprehension of thought and thought is not there in that state and is called Bhavanatita sadbhava susthiti.
pvssnraju

Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #52 on: November 23, 2008, 03:42:14 PM »
Dear Dr. Raju and others,

Excellent explanation. Verse 10 of Upadesa Saram is the epitome of
entire Upadesa Saram.

1. It is like Mount Everest, when all the verses are like different
peaks of Himalayas, like Annapoorna, Ganjanjanga and K2.  It is
Mount Everest, the tallest and the most sublime.

2. This is the essence of entire Ramana Way, and all His works
are only commentary on it.

3. It is the womb from where the Ulladu Narpadu, the Reality on 40
verses, Sad Darsanam took birth.

4. It is like the 3rd Law of Thermodyanamics, where which the entire
Newtonian Physics was further developed.

5. It is like the general theory of realativity, of Einstein, from which
the bomb of Hiroshima, the entire Atma Jnana, exploded.

6. One day, a devout seeker would write a 300 page book on this verse.
There is a book by a Tamil Vidwan who wrote a full book on the first
two line verse of Tirukural of Tiruvalluvar.  One great Sivaraja Yogi,
Mahavidwan Dhandapani Desikar of Tiruneveli, wrote a 2000 page
book on the 566 verses of Tiruvachakam.

7.  Like Bradley wrote on Shakespearian tragedies, one day such
a book will come and it shall cover the entire path of Bhagavan Ramana.  We should ever, ever thank Poet Muruganar for this phenomenon.  

7. It is like Maandukya Upanishad, just 12 verses, and Sri Sankara
elaborated Vivekachoodamani of 600 verses.  Vyasa wrote Brahma
Sutram from out of that Upanishad.

8. I believe that Who am I? and this verse of Upadesa Saram are
sufficient for the seekers.  

Arunachala Siva.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #53 on: November 23, 2008, 04:02:34 PM »
Verse 10 continues....

Several types of persons came to Bhagavan Ramana.  Pure "karma
margis" came to Him. Annamalai Swami, Kunju Swami, several
kitchen assistants, Mudaliar Patti.  They all found that their karmas
by themselves would not lead to Atma Jnana.  But Bhagavan Ramana
corrected their paths, once they had attained the maturity to pursue
self enquiry.

Several "bhakti margis", devotees of Siva, Vishnu, Uma came to Him.
Muruganar wrote poems, in fact, he came with a poem, Desika Padigam.
G.V. Subbaramiah wrote beautfiul Telugu peoms like Thaamboola
Vaibhavam. Pazhaniswami and Sivaprakasam Pillai were Ganapati
devotees, even though they were not poets at that time. Sivaprakasam
Pillai later wrote poems on Bhagavan Ramana. Papaji and Krishnapremi
were great Krishna bhaktas.  All these bhaktas were asked to continue
their devotion but later, at an appropriate time, directed them to
vichara marga.

Kavyakanta Ganapati Sastri, was a great mantra japa speciailst
and Raja Yogi. He could bring rain drops on his head, when he came
out of the cave after chanting Sri Lalita Sahasranama.  But he found
that this would not give him peace and liberation.  Bhagavan Ramana
had to correct his path and put him into Atma Jnana vichara.

There were pure Jnanis who came to Bhagavan Ramana.  They started
right earnest at the beginning itself and found the Ramana Way the
same, but it needed some refinements and Bhagavan Ramana gave
those refinements.  Lakshmana Sarma, (Who), Sri Sadhu Om, Wolter
Kiers are examples of this type.

So, every path is good in itself.  But Jnana Marga, which is the simplest,
is the most sublime.  People who were pursuing  other paths, came to
know its simplicity and refined themselves.

Okay, What is this Vichara Marga, how is it simple?

Arunachala Siva.    

Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #54 on: November 23, 2008, 04:21:52 PM »
Verse 10 continues...

How is this Vichara Marga simple?

Because, it only needs a withdrawing and crouching in the Self.
Where is this Self?  Bhagavan Ramana says:  Utitha Idathil....
The Place from where it rose or sprang up?  For the seekers who
want to know the place, Bhagavan Ramana said: "It is on the
right side of the chest, two digits away from midchest.  It is
called Heart Centre.  This concept is revolutionary.  Never anyone
prior to Him had said that the Heart Centre is on the right side of
the chest, not even Sri Sankara and Gaudapada.  But Bhagavan
Ramana said it out of His own experience.  This is experiential
and not to be shown or perceived.  Once some over-anxious devotees
wanted to test it!  Bhagavan Ramana agreed enthusiastically!
They touched His chest on its right side and found three beats at
an interval!  So, 'from where' means Heart Centre.

For others who are already advanced, did not want any such thing.
They all understood that the Self is everywhere, and there is no
need to seek it within.  But remember, this is only for advanced
souls, and not for most of us!  Then, the Uthitha Idathil.... means
"from which" and not "from where".  They spring from the Self,
all these dualities, with mind and ego complex.  And after proper
self enquiry, where mind is controlled or annihilated, then the mind-
less soul merges into from which it sprang, that is the Self, Brahman,
the Oversoul.

Verse 10 in Tamil, Upadesa Undiar:

Uthitha Idathil, odungi irutthal,
Adu Kanmamum*, bhaktiyum, Undhi para,
Adu Yogamum, Jnamum, Undhi para!

(* Kanmam - Karmam.)

Arthur Osborne's translation:

Absorption in the Heart of Being,
Whence we sprang,
Is the path of action, of devotion,
Of union and of knowledge.

Osborne uses excellent words. He does not openly say, either
'from where' or 'from which'.  He leaves it to the seekers.

Arunachala Siva.
     
             

ramanaduli

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #55 on: November 23, 2008, 05:45:37 PM »
DearSrkudaji

You say we have to pick up the work with ego.But we should not forget "I" witness. Ego is like a dress. Is not a risky game. Here i cannot understand correctly. I request you to explain
once again. At first we should know what is ego. then how much we can apply to handle the situation. My understanding is ..... suppose some one is doing wrong. I do witness.
I correct him. If he agrees  then I should not feel proud and should not expect any fruit out of it. If I feel, then it is my ego. If he does not listen, I should not feel bad for it.
Is it.
If we do the work with ego, what is the surity that we would not fall once again in the Maya. Instead, if we do with the suddha manas  I think this is the right way of doing.
Am I right.

Ramanaduli


Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #56 on: November 23, 2008, 06:39:14 PM »
Dear srkudai,

Be a Witness.  Wonderful words.  Observe from where you sprang up.
Observe from which you sprang up.  This is the essence of the Witness,
and the Upadesa Saram.  One Narayana Guru, a famous Social reformer
and a Jnani and head of Varkala Math, Kerala.  He went all the way
to Skandrsramam to see Bhagavan Ramana.  He looked at Him and
Bhagavan Ramana gazed at him.  No exchange of words!  Later
he dined with Bhagavan Ramana and then wrote a five verse composition
called Nivrtti Panchakam.  Later after retrurning to Kerala, he wrote
another five verses titled Municharya Panchakam.  No exchange of
words, and Narayana Guru understood Him.  No words, no emotions,
no prostrations, no taking leave etc., etc., as you said Silence is the
most powerful thing, since it does not have any emotions.  Kavyakanta
Ganapati Sastri said:  After realization, Buddha established a religion,
Sankara wrote Brahmasutra Bhashyam, and Christ went around meeting
people in Sinai Desert.  But Bhagavan Ramana just remained in the Self.
He is the Jnani who swallowed a mountain of emotions, words, tours,
and preaching.

Arunachala Siva.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #57 on: November 23, 2008, 06:44:30 PM »
Dear Ramanaduli,

How to run the ego with Witness?  Keep the Witness as a stick
and drive the donkey of ego till it comes back home, which is
again Witness! 

Arunachala Siva.

ramanaduli

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #58 on: November 23, 2008, 08:22:05 PM »
Dear Subramaniyan ji

Now I got a new dimension to understand the "ego". So far what I understood from the books that ego is very bad. This is the one creates all problem. Ego means ahamkar i.e. should be removed in our mind to proceed to our self realisation.  When each one is having ego and lives, each one thinks I am right.
All problems then start.  So I thnk ego is very bad. If you explain more about ego I would be greatful to you.


Ramanaduli
 


DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #59 on: November 23, 2008, 09:05:27 PM »
Consciousness+Adjuncts= Ego, Ahamkar (False I,Upadhi unarvu, "I" thought,adjunct consciousness,Vesha dhi,object knowing consciousness).

Consciousness without the association of adjuncts= Aham (Real "I",Existence consciousness,I am,ullam,ulladu,arive).
pvssnraju