Author Topic: Upadesha Saram  (Read 69740 times)

Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2008, 06:28:45 PM »
I view the Verse 3 somewhat like this:

The devotee asks Bhagavan Ramana like this:

Bhagavan!  You say, that actions give results but with seeds inside,
to create further actions.  But, we are afraid of your Brahmastaram,
Who am I?  We are not able to do self enquiry, we are more at home,
with karmas, bhakti, mantra japa etc.,  Is there a way out for us?

Bhagavan says in this verse.  All right, you are not able to leave actions,
okay, you do actions, karmas, bhakti and mantra japa.  But at least,
leave the desire-ship.  Do such actions, if not without 'doership'
but atleast without 'desire-ship'.  Do karma without desires.  And
that is Niskamya Karma.  Such desireless actions, will make your
thinking and contemplation pure, and it will the show way for liberation!

Once when Bhagavan Ramana was strolling on the Hills, a devotee
came to Him and asked:  What is Nishkamya Karma?  Bhagavan Ramana did not answer.  He saw an old tree branch on the way, took it, cut
the ends with His pen-knife, scrapped the outer surface.  He then
took some herbal leaves and polished the stick.  Finally, He took another set of herbs and polished as if it were an oil polish.  The stick shone in brilliance.  After some distance, a shepherd came and asked Bhagavan Ramana: "Swami!  I have lost my stick.  Did you see it anywhere?
Bhagavan Ramana replied:  "Do not worry, take this stick!"  The
shepherd took the stick with profound gratitude and prostrated Him and left the place.  Bhagavan Ramana then told the devotee:  "This is
Nishkamya Karma!"             

Karutthanukku* akkum nitkamiya** kanmam,***
Karuthai**** thiruthi athu Undhipara,
Gadhi vazhi***** kaanpikkum Undhipara.  (Verse 3)

( * Karutthan - Godhead.  ** Nitkamiya - Nishkamya.
   *** kanmam - karmam. **** Karuthai - buddhi.
   ***** Gadhi Vazhi - Way to liberation.)

Arunachala Siva.


matthias

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2008, 07:09:45 PM »
wonderfull story  :)

I think this verse goes even deeper into the art of renouncing world and actions...it says go deeper into my mysterym go deeper into the witness state..

and in fact not desiring is a very sublime state, then the mind is happy with the mind, nothing more is needed (I think skrudai talked about this also)...

and beeing content and not desiring anyting other then what is right now truely shows the way to liberation, and it is purifiing...because when one rests as mind in mind and is content with whatever is, then there is a feeling of oneness (or there is just one dominant feeling)...this "feeling" this happiness that is not longer bound to what happens is at hte same time renouncing the world..actions continue but the "feeling" is more in focus, reactions arise, and still mind is resting simply as mind...thought come and go, but this peace is more in the foreground....



but of course the ego returns, like usual...but now something has changed...it is purer, more transparent...not so much interesst is anymore in the actions and reactions...but a desire arises, one of the last desires (to rest in mind as mind, wihtout needing something else)...

the only problem? the desire to rest in mind as mind..in fact this desire is the greatest hurdle...

just like the quest for the self is the greatest hurdle for resting as the self

or seeking enlightment = over"seeing" enlightment

much love and may bhagavan pull our striving and desiring minds into the "mind at rest" state and then ultimatly destroy it.....


« Last Edit: November 14, 2008, 07:12:24 PM by matthias »

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2008, 07:36:10 PM »
Verse3:
Meaning:-When work is done without doership or desire and fruit of work is devoted to God mind is purified to the state of suddha Manas which helps us
to get liberated from the apparent imprisonement in the ego which is a creation of thought.

Comment:- There is relation between work and the ego.Our attitude(Bhavana) towards the result of action is very important.By birth any human
being is born with tendencies and desires.When work is born out of desire there is always an eye on the fruit of work.When there is an eye on fruit
of action "doer" is born.Doer is not an existential entity.Because we do work with an eye on the fruit of work "doer appears to exist" because
of continuous flow of thought that he is the doer.Suppose if an electrical bulb is rotated circularly with certain velocity the bulb appears as a
circle of fire which in reality does not exist.Similarly continuous thought doer feels us to make us believe that it is an existential entity.
Doership is just an idea born only when work is done with desire with an eye to enjoy the fruit of action(Kartrutva,Bhoktrutva Bhranthi) so
when we devote the fruit of work to God the idea of doer and doership will not be there,and once there is no doership there is no ego.
In this way impersonal activity purifies the mind by getting rid of idea of doership which prepares the mind to reflect Pure consciousness
thus paving the way for liberation.Dispassion must be there before doing the action,during the action and after the action when fruit of action is conferred.If there is no dispassion action is contaminated with the idea of doership.So impersonal action is a great aid for liberation.We should
not renounce doing action but we should renounce the fruit of action.Lord Krishna stressed in Bhagavat Gita about this attitude towards the
work and the fruit of work.Work done with desire and doership binds and limits our consciousness(kinchigna),where as impersonal work helps
us to get liberated from the shackles of ego.
pvssnraju

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2008, 09:11:25 AM »
Verse 4:
Meaning:-Rituals done by the body,repitition of a sacred word,prayer,singing in the name of God done by the voice,self-enquiry done by the mind are effective in cleansing the mind
and their effect of cleansing increases in that order i.e self-enquiry is more effective than Japa,and Japa is more effective than rituals.

Comment:-Bhagawan is telling various methods to be adopted to clean the mind and their effectiveness in this verse.

Rituals are gross form of worship done by the gross body.Ritual is not a goal in itself but an aid to spiritual progress.In devotion there is the
surrender of the ego so mental activity is reduced which finally leads to the extinction of the ego.If we stop giving energy to the ego,the ego
dies it's natural death.Rituals,repitition of a sacred word and self-enquiry stop the energy from feeding the ego,instead they divert our energy
and attention selfwards.If we stop attending to the ego by whatever be the method, ego become tenuous and finally it loses it's hold on us and later
it will die a natural death.Ego is mixture of self consciousness "I am" with adjuncts.It idenfies not only with the imaginary adjuncts like
body,thought process,intellect,memory but also the self consciousness"I am".Our aim is to separate self consciousness from mixing with the adjuncts by nullifying
the identifying agency which is ego.If there is no identity of self consciousness with the adjuncts there is no place for ego to exist.
Rituals,Japa,self-enquiry aids in nullifying the identifying agency and their effect of nullification is more in the order of rituals,Japa,self-enquiry.
In self-enquiry the ego is bypassed and our attention is payed only to the source of the ego.So in self-enquiry ego is not attended to
so it dries up because of lack of energy supply and one day it falls altogether.This is called self realisation because self consciousness disidentifies itself
from the imaginary adjuncts and self consciousness is left in it's pure form.Prayer,singing the Lord's greatness are part of action done by the voice in the service of God.So we have to do service to God with the three instuments of body,voice and mind to get rid of the identifying agency which
is tying self consciousness with the adjuncts and thus creating innumerable troubles arising out of this wrong identity.In this way our mind is cleansed
of the contaminants effectively.
pvssnraju

Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2008, 10:04:05 AM »
Dear Dr. Raju and srkudai,

I look at Verse 4 like this.

Why should Bhagavan Ramana says that the meditation, is superior
to the rest, and the mantra japa and poojas are superior to the next?

Take poojas.  These need, bodily strain and strain on your purse,
for which one has to seek wealth outside.  The wick, the oil, the
lamps, for burning a lamp.  Then comes flowers, fruits, leaves,
sandal paste, incense sticks, camphor, a good idol made of gold
or other metals, or a sculpture or a photograph.  Then comes, the
prasadams, cooked rice, ghee, dhal, sweet porridge, salt porridge
et all.  All these require bodily strain and wealth.  Hence these poojas
are the most inferior. 

Take mantra japas.  These needs no outside agencies, but involve
strain for the tongue, teeth and mouth and memorizing the mantras.

What about meditation?  This needs only your mind and body being
still, no activity.  No postures, asanas, no handposes, mudras.  Simply
sit and mentally do the mantras, without even moving the lips. 

Hence, Bhagavan Ramana says:  Alright you want to do prayers, without
self enquiry.  Do it mentally, meditate.

During Bhagavan Ramana's time, all these three different people
came to Him.  There were priests in Mother's Temple, doing poojas.
There were people like Kavyakanta Ganapati Muni, doing crores of
mantra japas.  There were people like Annamalai Swami, Kunju
Swami and others doing Siva Siva japa.  There was Gambhiram Sesha
Iyer doing Rama Rama Japa.  But there were also devotees like
Lakshmana Sarma, Major Chadwick and others who were doing
meditation.  This meditation could even be I am I am, this was
what Bhagavan told them.  He approved all the three types, but
stressed that the meditation, within, without even, moving the lips
and the tongue is the best.

Dhidam ithu poosai* sepaumum* dhyanamumm
Udal Vakku Ulath thozhil Undhipara
Uyar vahum onril onru Undhipara.  (Verse 4)

(* Poosai - Pujas, ** Sepa - Japa)     

Arunachala Siva.

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2008, 10:16:36 AM »
Dear Srk Udai,
                   It is nice that you are giving practical examples relevant to context which make the understanding easier.
Today i have posted 4th verse in the morning for convenience and to attend my duties without interruption.So if i post the comments on verses
much before you kindly dont misunderstand me because you have started this thread.
pvssnraju

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2008, 10:25:21 AM »
Dear Subramanian,
                         Muruganar used to say that Atma vidya is ati sulabham and is as easy as seeing hastamalaka.Bhagawan disagreed with him
saying that hastamalaka requires a hand,a seed in it,eyes to see it,mind to recognise it,so it is also one way a complicated affair where as
in self-enquiry is only "summa iru"with just paying attention without any gross or subtle doing.It is that simple he says.
pvssnraju

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #22 on: November 17, 2008, 01:36:40 PM »
Dear Srk Udai,
                   I am fully aware that body age is not related to spiritual understanding it is quite surprising that a 30yr old young person like you is endowed
with so much understanding and i am also surprised to see people vegetating in Tiruvannamalai for the past thity years without any understanding whatsoever,leading a mechanical life there and highly egoistic because of the qualification of their just staying at Tiruvannamalai instead of their
native place.You have a great future because your present is great.
pvssnraju

Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #23 on: November 17, 2008, 03:16:17 PM »
Dear srkudai, Dr. Raju,

I am also of the same view as Dr. Raju, with srkudai.  Not all the
female flowers become unripe fruits and not all the unripe fruits
become ripe fruits.  Each one has to work out in the way of his/her
prarabdha.  Not all the priests in Siva temples, become Manikkavachagar!

Arunachala Siva. 

Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #24 on: November 18, 2008, 09:28:52 AM »
The poojas, need outside objects, purity of the body and a purse
to take up expenses for flowers, fruits, betel leaves, betel nuts,
coconuts, an idol or a  salagrama etc., etc.,  It involves bodily
activities, kara, nyasa etc., etc., Mantra japa also requires movement
of lips, teeth and tongue and a Guru outside, to teach you the mantras.
But meditation on the Self does not require anything, outside in the
forms of various objects, a Guru, bodily movements etc., That is why
this is the greatest.  Bhagavan Ramana when He was in Patala Linga
did not even have a bath for several days!  His body was full of dirt
and smelling.  He did not even have a koupina sometimes!  But He
was in the Self.

This reminds me of a story about a boss of mine.  He and his wife
planned to distribute 1 lakh turmeric fingers to various married brahmin
ladies and brahmin unmarried girls.  He invited me and my wife.  We
went to his house.  In the hall, I could smell the fragrance of turmeric.
I looked out and there were bags and bags of turmeric fingers, bales
and bales of betel leaves and bags of betel nuts and baskets of flowers.
When I saw his face, that boss was grinning.  He said:  "Yes, I got
these items from a contractor, to whom I give orders of business!"
I became indignant.  Here is a man, who became corrupt, for doing
this special turmeric pooja!  I told my wife, when we returned home,
"give these turmeric fingers to the poor people, do not use them
yourself.  These are having stains of corruption."  As Shakespeare,
said in Hamlet, : Not all the poppy, nor mandragora nor all the drowsy
suyrups of Arabia, shall ever wash the blood stains of the murderer!"

Why such poojas and acquire further sins in life?   Meditate and stay
with the Self!

Arunachala Siva.   
 

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #25 on: November 18, 2008, 04:19:11 PM »
Dear Srk udai,
                   This is what is called Sada Apramada and is very important for spiritual progress.
pvssnraju

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #26 on: November 18, 2008, 05:13:12 PM »
Dear Srk Udai,
                   Yes,i met Sri Swami Suddhananda in BVRM during his stay there.I came to the college along with him and Sri Jagannadha Rao garu.
I spent several hours continuously with swamiji and he asked me to stay in his ashram at Tiruvannamalai with family but i declined the offer.
I will let you know more about him in a personal message.He is well read,knowledgeable,knows the intricacies of self-enquiry than many
Ramana devotees and he wrote a book on self-enquiry in Tamil which many say is excellent,knows the teaching techniques well.
I never visited his ashram in chennai but Sri Jagannadha Rao told me that it is one of the well maintained and beautiful ashram.
pvssnraju

ramanaduli

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #27 on: November 18, 2008, 08:25:12 PM »
Der Srkudai ji

Buddhist monks bow to show their respect towards to their fellow monks. In general people do namasthye. They forld their hands keeping right to their chest. I am told, we have to do
namaste keeping folded hands just right to our chest to show respect to all friends. Whereas for Guru like teachers we have to raise our hands upto our forehead. And in front of God
we should raise  our hands above our head. I think Subramaniyan ji can explain about this.


Ramanaduli

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #28 on: November 18, 2008, 09:42:37 PM »
Upadesa saram verse 5:

Meaning:-To serve the world looked upon as the manifestation of the Lord,is to offer worship to the Lord of eight fold forms.

Comment:-Lord is omnicient so he pervades every atom of his creation.Creation is the adjunct of Lord i.e Eswara.Earth,water,fire,air,ether,
Sun,Moon and all living beings are eight fold manifestation of the Lord.Space happens due to Pancha Bhutas(Five fundamental elements of creation)
and Time happens due to the presence of Sun and the Moon.All Jivas function in the perview of time and space.They have no independent existence beyond time and space.So worship of these eight fold forms regarded all as forms of his,is perfect worship of Lord.This type of worship is
without doership and there is surrender in it,so it purifies the mind and paves the way for self realisation.So when we see the world with this Bhavana we will
feel that we are seeing and serving the Lord.Such type of devotion is called Para Bhakti.Sri Rama Krishna Parama Hamsa used to see Mother Kali
in everything.For saint Nami Nandi Adigal every one in Tiruvur used to appear as Siva to him.This is Para Bhakti.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2008, 09:46:42 PM by DRPVSSNRAJU »
pvssnraju

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2008, 08:35:08 AM »
Upadesa Saram Verse 6:

Meaning:-Better than the best hymns of devotional praise is the repetitive uttering of sacred names in which uttering with low voice(upamsu japa) is better than uttering louder(uchha japa),but best of all is the meditation in the mind(mental japa).

Comment:- Describing the greatness of Lord in detail is the best devotional praise.It is better for japa to be done in low voice than loud voice.

The aim of japa is to hold on to a single thought thus excluding all other thoughts.As japa progresses mind will be subdued and mind becomes
one pointed(Ekagra chitta) and to such a mind, silence of the self conscious being is revealed which is usually called self knowledge.
Japa withdraws our attention from the nonself and withdrawing of attention from nonself amounts to attending to the self conscious being.
Once we learn this skill of abiding and holding on to Pure consciousness spiritual progress becomes easy and effortles.Japa should be done with passionate devotion to the Truth but not mechanically.Japa should be done with total self surrender(Poorna saranagathi) to have good results.Once we exclude attending to nonself
what remains is only the "self" and to rest in and as self is the aim of all spiritual desciplines.
pvssnraju