Author Topic: Upadesha Saram  (Read 69702 times)

srkudai

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Upadesha Saram
« on: November 12, 2008, 06:12:47 PM »
:) DELETED MY PART. NAME IS UNCHANGED AS OTHERS HAVE ALSO WRITTEN COMMENTS.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2012, 07:31:13 PM by srkudai »

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2008, 06:32:34 PM »
Dear Srk Udai,
                   Today is an ausicious day of kartika pournima.When i have seen your post i felt it as a spiritual gift from siva through you.
You are the right person to do that because you have proper understanding of it already and you are having grip in sanskrit and English which are essential
to present the subject in this forum.I request you to give literal meaning of each word before proceeding to comment on each verse.
It will be much more interesting if people like Subramanian and Ramanaduli participate in the commentary simultaneously with you.
I sincerely feel that this is a great contribution from you to Ramana devotees like me.Thank you.
pvssnraju

Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2008, 07:40:45 PM »
Dear srkudai,

Wecome with your Upadesa Saram.  It is an opportunity to read,
learn and understand it together in the Forum.  Excellent efforts.
Please continue.

Arunachala Siva.

matthias

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2008, 08:13:44 PM »
thank your for this post a very inspired idea :)

I just pic up my german translation of the first verse....

for me this verse is to be read (like any other verse of bhagavan) with the totality of the self, the hidden aspects of it, the obvious, the unchangeble heart..all I can offer to his words should be offered..

what also is wonderfull about upadesa saram is that all verses always point to the highest,... always...

he underlines very strong that action is a dead entity, this is the core for me....how do I understand it?

for me this verse tries to wake me up to the fact that all my doing (everything I do) is dead and without substance of its own, no deeper meaning or nothing to gain from it, so I think in this verse it is about renouncung actions of any sort, and about surrender to the one who is the great doer...

it is about a first glimpse that what I do is just a lifeless activity, that is not myself and has nothing to do with myself....

it is like he says: please forget the actions, forget the activites you are identified with and realxe into the truth

so this verse is about the activity of the ego first and also has the hint how we should overcome this: in simply seeing who is the doer and who is not the doer...




DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2008, 08:23:07 PM »
Dear Srk Udai,
                   I am presenting my point of view of ths first sloka.Feel free to comment ifyou differ.It is not a problem for me.

Meaning of the first verse:Action is insentient.Action is not the ultimate reality so action per se has no ability to confer the fruit of action.
Fruit of action occurs according to the whim of the ultimate reality which is usually called God.

Comment:Bhagawan explains in the first verse itself why individual being performing the action is not the doer.So he is questioning the
idea of doership in the first verse itself.If one understands the lie of doership the spiritual journey is over because without that lie of doership
there is no existence to the thesis of ego.Action and doership are born out of self ignorance,self ignorance is insentient so all actions born out of concept of doership are insentient.Performer of the work is not the doer so the fruit of action is not in his hands.In the phenomenal reality
Volition(Ichha Sakti),knowledge to perform the action(Jnana Sakti),energy to perform the action(Kriya Sakti) belongs to the ultimate reality
but we superimpose those qualities on us resulting in doership(Kartrutva) and enjoyership(Bhoktrutva) anomalies.Action has no ability to confer the
bliss which is not of this world.So action is not the ultimate reality.
pvssnraju

ramanaduli

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2008, 09:14:18 PM »
Dear Srkudai ji

First of all I would like to thank you very much for bringing this Upadesha saram. I do not have this book. Anyway, I have been thinking to ask this forum members to post some systems which we can observe in our day to day life and can proceed to our goal. I think my wishes are granted by Bhagavan. It is coming through you. And do not think, that you are doing arguments. This forum is open to all true seekers only. You are explaining very well. Especially I learnt more about my mind. When you and Raju ji were discussing, I learnt quite lot. You both were not arguing instead were discussing.It is like a sadas.During Adi sankara period also it was happening and even in presence of Bhagavan also it happened. When two learned will discuss others are geting moe benifited. So I welcome your views and discussions.
Thanking you,

Ramanaduli

ramanaduli

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2008, 12:31:40 AM »
Dear Srkudai ji.

It is fine we do not have control on results. But we have to do the karma. In my last posts, I wrote we should do all spiritual aids. Are they also karmas.? If I do not have the doership sense is not it good? In the same way, doing atma vichara, we should not think the result? Please explain me


Ramanaduli

Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2008, 10:45:37 AM »
Dear srkudai and others,

I am giving my view on the actions per se, not the doership.

Actions can be classified into four types.  There could be other
classifications too.

Good acts produce Good results.  But here it does not stop, it
further produces anything good or bad.  It is like stereochemistry
of alkaloids and terpenes, complex organic chemical products,
which produce innumerable chains of other compounds.  Take
Ravana.  He did good acts of Siva tapas.  He got kingship of Lanka.
But this good result did not stop here.  He abducted Sita and got into
trouble.  So the results are ad naseum spreading.  Hence the good
acts, "kartur" is Jada.  Only God to decide.  It is God who decides as the Master.  One more funny example here.  Lakshmana Sarma, WHO,
who wrote his commentary on Sad Darsanam, was a naturopathist.
He prescribed 21 days fast for a young boy who was deaf.  He was
confident of curing him but the boy instead of getting cured, died
of starvation!  

Good acts bad produce bad results.  I shout at my son for smoking.
He stops smoking, but later I come to know that he smokes stealthily
without any one's knowledge.  Good acts produce bad results!

Bad acts produce good results.  The permissive sex in society caused
AIDS, and the permissiveness somewhat stopped.  Now, if medicine is found for AIDS, it may be a good result. But that medicine, would re-start the permissive sex, because of the safety it assures!

Bad acts produce bad results.  There are innumerable examples.
Not reading well, the student fails in examination.  But the same
student, will divert his attention from studies and will become a great
painter or a cinema actor!  Bill Gates was a school drop out.  Today,
he is the richest man on the globe.  Most of the Hindi and Tamil cinema
actors were school drop outs.  

So the acts and fruits are not predictable.  The concept of sin and
heavan, hell etc., are all not predictable.  Only God should decide
what should be the fruit and not actions per se.

Karmam payan taral, kartanadhu anaiayaal,
Karmam kaduvuluo undhipara, karmam Jadamathal undhipara.

(The Tamil version is for those Tamil knowing people,  who do not have the book.)

Arunachala Siva.      

Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2008, 10:52:45 AM »
Dear srkudai,

I gave the example of Lakshmana Sarma's naturopathy adventure.
Major Chadwick, I already wrote about it, had written an English
translation of Complete Works of Bhagavan Ramana, and was almost
ready to have it approved by Bhagavan Ramana and published.  On
the last day, he found that plans were already afoot to publish Osborne's
translation.  He simply submitted the manuscript to Bhagavan Ramana,
and continued his self enquiry, without any further emotions.  Good
acts producing bad results or no results.

Arunachala Siva.  

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2008, 11:54:14 AM »
Dear all,
          When Sun shines the lotus blooms.Then who is responsible for this blooming.Blooming is happening occuring in the presence of Sun light.
So neither the Sun nor the lotus are the doers of this happening.It is a natural law that lotus blooms in Sun light.It is in the nature of things.
But mind tries to conceptualise natural events in it's language and says either Sun is the doer or lotus is the doer.If we closely scrutinise this logic
it will be found that there is no doer at all,things happen as naturally as they should be.Mind always tries to translate the things that which it
does not know into it's language of known by conceptualising.Concept has no substance in it and reality asserts itself.Bhagawan is telling
what is real in the sphere of action and the limitations of action in this first verse and the futility of doing actions thinking that they yield results
according to their expectation and wish.
pvssnraju

Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2008, 12:06:40 PM »
Dear Dr. Raju,

The Sun and the Lotus example is quite excellent and apt.  Events do happen, as per God's Will or plan.  Of course, we introduce the concept
of Maya for such activities.  But it is God, who gives fruits.  The
planetary movements, dasa, bhukti, gochara and other caclulations
of astrology are there who think that they can 'do'.  For those, who
trust that God 'does', these things do not matter.  Sri RK used to
say:  The almanac says that it will rain today.  But it will rain only
when God wills it.  By crushing the almanac, one does not get even
one drop of water!

Arunachala Siva.

Subramanian.R

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2008, 05:16:10 PM »
Dear srkudai,

This 'incompleteness' makes a human being run around for 'completeness' externally.  Muriel James, a behvaioural scientist,
calls it Gestalt, lacking in completeness, in German.  This makes
one seek every thing outside, why even outside this world!  This
merry go round, is really misery go round.

About ordinary people, we know.  About the devotees and bhaktas,
suppose they do all sorts of good deeds, punyas, and then they go
to the Heavans.  What next.  Good food in the company of Indra and
Kubera, unlimited wealth and dancing girls.  After that?  Coming back
again into this world, when the play is over, to live life again!  Again,
heavan or hell and then the grand comeback!  These fruits of karmas,
contains the 'seed' for further action, further karmas, ad nauseum.
But liberation is state of merits and no merits, no rewards, no punishments, the Great Middle Path or the Great Meridian.

Once some Nadi-sastra expert came and told about Bhagavan Ramana.  It appears He had a lot of tapas in the previous birth and was meditating
on Siva.  But Brahma came first.  Brahma said:  Please come my child!
I shall give you heavans and a post of Indra.  Bhagavan had said:
Keep the heavans with you along with the post of Indra.  Then Vishnu
came: O please come my child to Vaikunta.  I shall give you Vaikunta,
where there are nectar and dancing girls, Rampa, Menaka, Urvasi and
Rati.  Bhagavan Ramana said:  O Vishnu, keep your Vaikunta and the
nectar and the dancing girls.  Please go away.  Then Siva appeared.
He did not offer anything to Bhagavan Ramana.  Bhagavan Ramana
did not even "see" Siva.  He merely "experienced" Him.  He merged with
Siva, the Effulgence, as one with out a second!

Vinaiyin Vilaivu Vilaivutru Vithaai
Vinaikadal Veezhndhidum Undhipara,
Veedu tharal ilai Undhipara!

The actions produce results but their seeds within, produce
further fruits.  They do not confer liberation, which is a state
beyond good and bad, beyond action and inaction, beyond
ignorance and knowledge.  It is beyond any duality.

srkudai, excellent, keep it up.

Arunachala Siva.

ramanaduli

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2008, 06:41:00 PM »
Dear Srkudai ji,

We take only spiritual aspirant here.You say, due to the incompleteness man go out for his happiness in the same way bhakta feels a vacant within him so he has a thirst and proceeding in finding God. doing japa and puja etc.etc.
Yes it is true. All jivas on this earth is doing karma whether Atma vichara or Anna vichara. due to the incompleteness.
. We came from the Purnam, and we are purnam (this was stated by Subramaniyan ji in his lost post when he told the story of making modhak in the ashram). So it is the ignorance that we feel we are not complete and we have to do karma to fill up the completeness. After realising this Thayumanavaar and others said. you need not to do. SUMMA IRU.
But if the realised person due to his destiny lives with the ajnanai he has to do all the karmas as an ordinary man does in the world. As he is a realised person, he will do the karmas for others without having the sense of doership.(like kadaveli Siddar and many did).
It is true. As you sow as you reap. If we put a seed of alphonsa we get lots of yeilds of alphonsa on the other hand if we put sour seed we yield more of sour yeild. Ajnanai thinks as he is having doership it is due to him.

I UNDERSTOOD LIKE...THE WHOLE INCOMPLETENESS IS ITSELF IS MAYA
As we cannot say how the creation happened, we cannot find out the cause of this MAYA. No body can say, why this creation, how the Maya happened and when the space and time started. Including Sankara everyone says, to find out the way to get out. The way also only for ajnanais.not for jnani.
As Raju ji gives the example  blooming lotus due to sun shines. Everything it HAPPENS ITSELF. ALL APPEARENCE DOES HAVE DISAPPEARENCE.
Now I understood your previous posts telling me all japas and going to temples is the pacifying the mind only.Here I want to say, I felt the incompleteness. I started. Now let it get stoped itself. As the fan how it stops after putting off the switch.As Subramaniyan ji says, looking me my children may think one day and follow little bit.


Ramanaduli

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2008, 06:55:21 PM »
2nd Verse:
Meaning:-Vast ocean of actions cause us to fall from uninterrpted blissful self awareness which is our natural state to mere object knowing
consciousness and result of the action is transient and obstruct our goal to posit the mind in the Pure conscious being.

Comment:-To be in a state of bliss is inherent in every human being.When he forgets the blissful nature of his self he tries to gain happiness through
actions which cause comfort to the body and which satisfy the psychological needs of the mind.In the pursuit of happiness he indulges in actions
which may give him pleasure which is always transient and always associated with the shadow of misery.Pleasure and pain are always together
in the result of action.Any form of action involves seeming movement of attention away from the self whose nature is bliss, towards an object
which does not have the property of bliss intrinsically.So the pursuit of pleasure which is the result of self ignorance involves action which obstruct the
recognition of our natural state of blissful self awareness.Actions always leads to formation of tendencies which obstruct our natural state of self conscious being.
pvssnraju

ramanaduli

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Re: Upadesha Saram
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2008, 08:58:22 AM »
Dear sirs
Due to the Maya,
We do karmas to get happiness.  While doing action  to have happiness from the objects we are moving faraway from the self. At the same time the effort or action which is taken for atma vichara does not keeps us away from the self. This action does not give bad result and pain.But it is not easy as watching the movie other things.If this sort of action gives bad result
 people may have doubt in doing sadhana. Is not it.?
I think, here we have to remember what Bhagavan said, the stick which helps to burn the corpse, at last it also is geting burned. In the same way, doing all karmas for self realisation cannot be compared with other actions.
It may not bring 100% result in one attempt. but definitely it will bring good result at the end. Therefore this sort of actions are good.


Ramanaduli