Author Topic: Practical Stuff  (Read 22812 times)

Param

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Re: Practical Stuff
« Reply #15 on: June 02, 2007, 11:38:54 PM »
It has been my practice to stare hard at the bust image of Bhagavan intently for a long time, and I have come away many a time with my heart full of his grace.


Graham

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Re: Practical Stuff
« Reply #16 on: July 05, 2007, 12:09:18 PM »
It has been said that only a few benefited from association with Bhagavan during his lifetime. But is that true?

It is clearly the case that right-effort produces right-results. Those who appear to have progressed to the naked eye were certainly few in number, but Bhagavan laid stress on the fact that the inner work is imperceptible - even to those undertaking it.

I give here two quotes -


Question: “Is not Grace the gift of the Guru?”

Bhagavan: “God, Grace and Guru are synonymous terms. They are eternal and immanent. If a Guru thinks that he can bestow the Self, which is already present, he does not deserve the name. The books say that there are various kinds of diksha or initiations - hasta, sparsa, chakshu, mano, etc. The Guru makes some rites with fire, water, japa, mantras, etc. and calls these fantastic performances dikshas, as if the disciple becomes ripe only after them.

“What did Dakshinamurti, the Supreme Guru do? He remained simply silent and the doubts of the disciples were dispelled: they lost their individualities. This is Jnana, and not all the verbiage usually associated with it.

“Silence is most potent in its effects. The Shastras, however voluminous and emphatic they may be, fall far short in their effect. The Guru is quiet and peace pervades all. His silence is vaster and more effective than all the Shastras put together. These questions arise because of the feeling (among some) that, having been here for so long, heard so much, exerted so hard, one has not gained anything. The work proceeding within is not apparent, though the Guru is always within you.”

Talks 398



“The Vichara ‘to know the self’ is different in method from the meditation “Shivoham” or “Soham”, “Lord Shiva I am” or “He I am.” I rather lay stress upon self-knowledge, for, you are first concerned with yourself before you proceed to know the world and its Lord. The “Soham” meditation or ‘I am Brahman’ meditation is more or less a mental thought. But the quest for the self I speak of is a direct method, indeed superior to the other meditation; for, the moment you get into a movement of quest for the self and go deeper and deeper, the real Self is waiting there to take you in and then whatever is done is done by something else and you have no hand in it. In this process, all doubts and discussions are automatically given up just as one who sleeps forgets, for the time being, all his cares.”

Sat Darshana Bhashya – Chapter 5


To give up attachment to the world is progress, to give up 'I' and 'Mine' is progress. Both require effort in the beginning and watchfulness throughout. It is unlearning attachment to the illusory that denotes progress and that 'can' be measured by the aspirant.

But no-one ever said that this was easy.

If you limit Bhagavan to the body during the life of the body, then you automatically limit him to the body after his death. How many times did he have to say 'I am not the body' before you believe him?

Bhagavan was a brahma-jnani, the highest of all, the supreme itself, the pure Brahman manifest through a transient form! When he said 'I am here, where can I go' it was not with reference to the body or its location.

All is only Brahman - 'you are also here, where can you go?'

Hameed

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Re: Practical Stuff
« Reply #17 on: July 05, 2007, 12:53:56 PM »
Yes Graham, thank you for the quotes. If you allow me to share my view on these things.
It is tirering to see how many teachers, I call them spiritual crooks,  pretend they can bestow realization on a discipel. Some teachers who are still bound by their own vasanas,  have the siddhi just to suspend for a while the disciplels' identification. They often call this selfrealization. The teacher becomes famous for that .... or rich or both. But when the discipel is not yet mature for the experience one will notice his waxing Ego after this so called realization . He might start teaching himself based on the glimpse of non duality he got and often we will see a new fanclub arise around him or her. 

Sages like Bhagavan Ramana are identified with Love and whenever ons sits with such Being without a trace of distrust, one will no doubt experience that Love. It has nothing to do with shaktipat, transmission, or just being an advanced sadhaka. Just the absence of distrust will do the trick. But so few can be free from fear due to their vasanas.

Some people have complete trust in a teacher who is actually a crook. It is the absence of distrust that might give them an experience of non duality. Of course the teacher will take credit for it and one will read later, He or she got enlightened through Swami such or such. It is all bogus. It was the temporal absence of distrust that did it. 
All peace can be found within ourselves.

Have a good day

Hameed
« Last Edit: July 05, 2007, 02:56:28 PM by Hameed »

Urmish Mehta

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Re: Practical Stuff
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2007, 09:38:33 AM »
Prenanjali wrote ----------

....Once we stop chasing enlightment (what one chases is usually running ahead and away), once we stop "seeking" , we might find "THAT" already HERE and NOW and we/it just IS.

-----------

True, but a trouble arises whem my outer world (call it my troubling karma) topples me down. The life is not a simple line...unless one has bypassed it somehow...trouble (life) IS but IS UNBEARABLE...now to stay as it is with that component of life is not easy.

Hameed

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Re: Practical Stuff
« Reply #19 on: July 08, 2007, 11:03:27 AM »
@Urmish Mehta

There is some benifit in knowing one is chained but it does solve the problem. It even has its own disadvantages.
People can get very depressed. Desires will no longer find gratifications. Human relations are boring. Spiritual teachers have nothing to offer etc. One sees their shortcomings.
There is a feeling one is wasting one's life. In Yoga Vashista it is said that such people sometimes create a mess around themselves just to experience what will  happen, especially what will happen to their minds.

 Anyway, it is all not in our hands and existence does not waste any time. 
« Last Edit: July 08, 2007, 11:05:51 AM by Hameed »

freespirit

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Re: Practical Stuff
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2007, 04:06:54 AM »
A few weeks ago I had read an article/publication on this site that explained the changes that take place within oneself when one begins self enquiry. It explained the rising of the consciousness above the head and this was the only article/publication that I have seen so far that recommended self enquiry with the eyes open.

I am unable to find this article/publication on the website anymore. Does anyone know the title of this aritcle/publication and where I can find it?

gratefully
freespirit

mark

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Re: Practical Stuff
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2007, 10:53:12 PM »
Hameed,
I reckon that is the truth of the matter.   It matters not how the spontaneity of life plays out. Depression or happiness matters not, what matters is beyond both. Still when one leaves the details behind the path can be rocky until beyond is fully realized, yeah?
Mark

Hameed

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Re: Practical Stuff
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2007, 11:49:14 PM »
Hameed,
I reckon that is the truth of the matter.   It matters not how the spontaneity of life plays out. Depression or happiness matters not, what matters is beyond both. Still when one leaves the details behind the path can be rocky until beyond is fully realized, yeah?
Mark


What you say is right Mark.

Usually it is the satguru who is coming close and when he comes he will remove the ashes of what one thought were the chains of the world.

No realization without a living guru. Only he can be the satguru.

Have a good day

Hameed
« Last Edit: July 11, 2007, 11:51:57 PM by Hameed »

mark

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Re: Practical Stuff
« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2007, 11:36:09 PM »
Usually it is the satguru who is coming close and when he comes he will remove the ashes of what one thought were the chains of the world

Hameed,
 Your quote here is dead on accurate and gives clarity to understanding to what cannot be understood. I am grateful for your insight.
mark

Graham

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God, the world and unlearning!
« Reply #24 on: August 24, 2007, 04:30:07 PM »
It is very clear from many of the opinions expressed on this forum and by the  self-styled advaitic teachers who abound today, that there is a profound  misunderstanding of the true teachings of Bhagavan and those of the other great  sages.

The simple truth, is that everything a serious seeker needs to know to fully  understand Bhagavan's teaching and the way to genuine enlightenement, is contained in  two books - the Srimad Bhagavatam and Tripura Rahasya, both of which are ancient  sanskrit works recommended by Bhagavan to serious seekers - both are now available in  English.

The fundamental misconception relates to effort and its purpose - from that every  other error arises.

Here is a synopsis of the Highest Truth extracted from the two works mentioned above:

The world and everything in it from the beginning to the end of time is merely an  impression formed upon the pristine substratum of the Self (God, the intelligent  principle). It has no basis or reality of its own beyond that of its source.

It is unreal because of the lack of an independent existence, but is real because of  its source. This can be clearly understood by comparison with our own experience of  dreams.

We all dream, creating and living in different circumstances for the duration of the  dream. Throughout the dream we believe it to be real and it is only when we awaken  that we know it to be unreal compared to the waking state. Despite this knowledge  when awake we continue to enjoy or suffer in ignorance during dreams night after  night, believing them to be real whilst immersed within them.

In the same way, the waking state is unreal compared to the true waking state of  self-realisation.

What is self-realisation? This is clearly defined as 'pure intelligence' devoid of  differences.

Creation is God's deliberate dream (for want of a better term), populated by God, who  covers himself with ignorance as the many jivas, suffering the pain of transmigration  until such time as he realises his error, seeks enlightenment and returns to the  pristine state.

God as both creator and creation is not limited to one form; whereas we, having very  weak minds, can only create and inhabit one form at a time, even in dreams.

That is it in a nutshell, but it is slightly more complex than stated above.

The effort that is required by the seeker to gain self-realisation has been described  very clearly as 'unlearning' by Bhagavan and the other great sages.

Incarnation is the fruit of habitual ignorance based upon the belief that the  illusion is real and that the Reality behind it is in fact an illusion. It is this  which has to be unlearned and the truth revealed in its place. Accomplishing this is  not as easy as it is to say the words and even after hearing the truth or having a  flash of pure consciousness, the majority continue to indulge in the illusion and  lose sight of the reality underlying it. This is where effort comes in.


Lord Krishna says in the Srimad Bhagavatam:


“You have, O King, fully understood the teaching of Narada and Angira. It is a fact  that all created beings are Myself. The Vedas which reveal the Reality are My own  body. The subject (or perceiver) should understand himself to pervade the whole  universe, which is the object of his perception, (that is, the universe, which  appears to be the field of his actions, resides in himself).

He should, again, view Me as pervading him as well as the universe — both being My  own conception. Just as a dreamer dreams his being fast asleep and dreaming of things  (friends, relations, business, etc.), which are really inside him, and when he wakes  up from this dream to the original one, imagines himself awake though he is still  dreaming, even so the perceiver should realise this waking (state) as a mere dream  created by Maya, the jiva’s own deluding power.

Therefore one should break the illusion of this waking state by fixing one’s  attention only on Me, its Witness. Know Me to be the transcendental Reality, the very  Self (of the dreaming jiva), Brahman, the Consciousness which experiences and  transcends the three states of waking, dreaming and dreamless sleep.


“When this My essence, is forgotten, the jiva comes to imagine himself different from  Me and, thus, starts turning endlessly on the wheel of birth and death.

He who fails to take advantage of his human body through which he can acquire  Self-knowledge can never hope to live in peace. One should, therefore, stop indulging  in activities which appear to be conducive to freedom and happiness, but from which  one reaps nothing but misery. Using discrimination and wisdom one should give up the  sense-pleasure of this world and the next and develop devotion to Me. For only  through intense concentration can the mind acquire the power to realise the identity  of the jiva with the Supreme Spirit (Myself) which is the sole aim of all human  endeavour.
   
“Bear this teaching in mind, O Chitraketu, and act diligently upon it, and you will  not fail to gain this Knowledge which is the Supreme Perfection.”

----------------

“If wronged, dear Son, you should not wrong in return. He who does not yield to anger  earns all the merits of him who displays it. Never should you hurt others by cruel  words nor defeat your foe by despicable means. He who utters scorching words to  torture others carries rakshasas (demons) in his mouth: prosperity and luck fly away  from him. You should always keep the virtuous as a model for all your behaviour and  should compare your acts retrospectively with theirs.

You should ignore the hard words of the wicked. He who is wounded by the shafts of a  cruel speech nurses his wounds by weeping day and night, which strikes at the very  core of his being. The wise never fling such arrows as these. There is nothing in the  three worlds which can please the gods more than kindness, friendship, charity,  sympathy and sweet speech. You should show regard to those who deserve it and should  always give but never beg.


“I have indicated in brief all these manifestations of Mine, but you must know them  to be nothing but fancy of the imagination — mere words, unreal. You will do well to  control your speech, mind and senses, and you will never again suffer transmigration.  He who fails to control his mind and tongue, will find all his spiritual attainments  will leak out of him like water out of an unbaked pot.”

-------------------------

“In order to lead men to the highest good, three methods of self-discipline have been  taught by Me. They are Jnana Yoga, the path of Knowledge (or investigation), Karma  Yoga, the path of Action, and Bhakti Yoga, the path of Devotion. The first suits best  him who has lost all taste for worldly action, considering it to be the source of all  misery, whereas to him who thirsts after fulfilment of desires through action, Karma  Yoga brings the desired end. The path of devotion is good for him who is neither  disgusted with sense pleasures nor inordinately attached to them, and who, by some  good fortune, loves to hear My stories and chant My name.

So long as one clings to worldly pleasure and has not developed devotion, he should  perform his duties according to the injunctions of the Scriptures. He who worships Me  through sacrifice with desire for its fruits, O Uddhava, goes neither to heaven nor  to the nether regions, but continues to take a human body and follow the straight  course, abstaining from sins and purging himself from impurities till he attains  Jnana (Supreme Knowledge) and devotion to Me. It is for this very purpose that the  denizens of heaven, like those of hell, aspire to take birth in this world, where  alone Jnana is attained.

The wise should long neither for heaven nor for hell, nor should they seek to  perpetuate this body, attachment to which is bound to lead them astray, but should  strive for Liberation through it before it is cut down by death, like the intelligent  bird who escapes to freedom betimes before the tree in which he has built his nest  falls by the woodcutter’s axe.

He who is alert enough to notice his life getting shorter by every day and every  night that passes, will lose no time in giving up his attachment to the body and all  its activities. He truly commits suicide who does not endeavour to cross the dark sea  of ignorance and transmigration whilst he possesses this sea-worthy boat, the body,  which is most difficult to obtain, the guru being its pilot and I, the favourable  wind, to take it safely to port.

“Full of renunciation and repugnance for action and its fruits, the seeker should  constantly practise concentration, and should be always alert to bring back the mind  when it strays and breaks loose from his grasp by pleasing contrivances. He should  intently watch its movements and, using his reason enforced by a sattvic (purified)  intellect, he should bring it under subjection, as he would an unbroken horse by  first conciliating it. This way of taming the mind is considered to be the highest  yoga.

“In his meditation he should reflect on the ultimate principles and the process of  creation as taught by the Sankhya, and dwell again and again on the teaching of the  guru in order to claim the modification of the mind. He should also with a sharp  intellect inquire into the identity of the jiva with the Supreme Self.
 
Should the yogi by mistake commit an undesirable act he must endeavour to counteract  it by yoga alone (take to more intensive meditation and reflection), and by no other  means; for adherence to one’s sadhana is highly virtuous. The distinction made  between virtues and sins (merits and demerits) have the one purpose, first to dispose  of impure actions and then of attachment to all actions, which, after all aim at  sensuous enjoyments.

“All the desires which are rooted in the heart of the sage who worships Me by the  yoga of devotion gradually wilt away and, when he realises Me, the knot of ignorance  which is lodged in his heart breaks, destroying all his doubts as well as the  unexhausted stock of his karma.

Thus by the yoga of devotion My devotee gains all that is gained by the other two  yogas, by penance, by knowledge, by dispassion, by charitable acts, by pilgrimage. My  devotee desires nothing, not even freedom from transmigration if offered to him by  Me, for desirelessness is the most direct route to final Emancipation. The  discrimination between virtue and sin, good and evil, does not exist for My pious  devotee who sees everything with an equal eye, seeing Me, Who stand beyond thought  and reason, in it.

Those who follow the foregoing paths as delineated by Me will attain My State, which  is free from all fear, and which is known by the name of absolute Reality (Brahman).


End of quotes --------------------------

Because the ignorance which perceives the world as real is so ingrained and powerful,  it requires constant effort to remove it - it will not go away by itself. The most  potent method is continuous self-enquiry which is both direct and one-pointed.

Simply thinking or saying 'the world is an illusion, I am the Self' is a complete  waste of time, it merely enhances the already swollen ego. Those who promote this  pointless activity try to justify their wasted efforts with inane teachings aimed at  enlightening others whom they consider to be more ignorant than themselves.

The serious sadhaka who wants emancipation in this lifetime should do nothing else  but perform the required effort continuously until success is achieved. He must turn  his back on all of the pleasures of the flesh, control his mind and drive it within.

Instant emancipation is very, very rare and can only happen with an already purified  mind; a mind which is devoid of all attachment. It does not happen just because you  want it - the desire for it is an obstacle in itself ... this is the conundrum which  baffles most seekers, but it is dealt with by Bhagavan and the scriptures very  clearly and the solution is 'dispassion and unlearning'.

However, if you think that you are ready for immediate emancipation without expending  any effort then ask yourself these two questions -

1/ Are you attached in any way to your body and its longevity, possessions, family,  friends, wealth, your status, property, ideas, thinking, talking, rituals, pleasure  in any form, pain, etc.?

Are you ready to give all of your property, possessions and wealth away, turn away  from everyone you know, become celibate in mind and body and throw yourself on God's  mercy?

2/ If God appeared before you and offered you emancipation and the immediate end of  all births (including this one), in exchange for the petal from one flower, would you  give it right now?

Think very carefully about both questions and be honest with yourself. The truth is  that the vast majority of 'seekers' would run away from either of these ideas. This  is the measure of how much work is to be done, how much effort is required to reach  the stage of true dispassion.

However daunting this appears at first sight, it should not be considered an  obstacle. It is taught that for every step you take towards emancipation,  emancipation takes three towards you. Every genuine effort expended in pursuit of  emancipation is never lost, however small it appears.

Being the Self 'is' effortless, but first you have to get rid of the continuously  expended wrong effort of sustaining ignorance, and 'that' requires right effort -  controlling the mind and forcing it within.

It might not be easy, but if you really want it you will succeed.


one

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Re: Practical Stuff
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2007, 10:17:04 PM »
A very intersting thread indeed!
Hameed's comments are very insightful
However, I beg to differ in his notion that Gnana and Bhakthi are different!
Gnana or Pure knowlege is the ultimate destination. Profound Bhakthi, be it Guru Bhakthi or Ram/krisna/jesus/allah bhakthi leads us to the same ananya bhava where we perseive that worshiper and worshiped are only ONE.
I believe, bhakthi  sustains the gnana and varagya to go thru our day to day life laden with responsibilities and role playing.
om namo bhagawate sri ramanaya

Morarji

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Re: Practical Stuff
« Reply #26 on: January 08, 2008, 07:00:30 AM »
Regarding having a desire for enlightenment not affecting liberation, may I quote from Talks:

D.: But the mind slips away from our control.
M.: Be it so. Do not think of it. When you recollect yourself bring it back and turn it inward. That is enough. No one succeeds without effort. Mind control is not one's birthright. The successful few owe their success to their perseverance.
    Talk 398 14th April 1937

I think it is quite incorrect to follow the neo advaitin point of view and get on calmly with life without concerning oneself with effort. It is true that ones current life experiences may be dictated by ones past prarabdha, but our CURRENT actions create our future prarabdha. For the advanced sadhak effort may be seen to be erroneous, but not for the majority of humanity!

Namaste

Subramanian.R

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Re: Practical Stuff
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2008, 04:18:47 PM »
Do not feel that we have experienced the Oneself and then we
are all writing in this Forum.  If one has experienced the Oneself, one
will not be writing anything.  So, we are all sharing/exchanging
our views only to become the Oneself.  The peeling of onion example
struck me.  You are ignorant - remove the peel - You are wise -
remove the peel - You are a sinner - remove the peel - You are
merritful - remove the peel - Pre-14th April 1950 Ramana is your
Guru - remove the peel - Post -14th April 1950 Ramana is your Guru -
remove the peel.  But this peeling business is with a big onion as big as
this earth.  Hence Guru's Grace is essential.  When you remove all the
peels, in the physical plane, the onion odour will be on you hands.  Here
the Ramana-Self will be in your Heart.  That is the only difference.
Arunachal-Siva; Arunachala-Siva;Arunachala-Siva