Author Topic: How does information transform into real knowledge?  (Read 14704 times)

David

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How does information transform into real knowledge?
« on: October 21, 2008, 10:29:16 PM »
Here is a topic that would be useful to hear the views of the forum on. A number of us have been working with all sorts of scriptures and teachers about Advaita philosophy and we feel loaded with information. But we recognise that somehow much of it has not transformed into what the wise call true knowledge. What is the secret of this transformation?
With much gratitude to my new  friends,
David

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: How does information transform into real knowledge?
« Reply #1 on: October 22, 2008, 09:04:09 AM »
Dear David,
               Information never transforms into real knowledge.Information is one of the aid to prepare our mind to get rid of nonself so that
the self effulgence of the real knowledge revealed spontaneously.Information is material in nature that is why it can be stored in our biocomputer i.e brain,
where as real knowledge is a living consciousness which reveals itself when our mind which is a mirror that reflects light of real knowledge is free of the
dust of tendencies accumulated during the evolutionary process and it is the tendencies that hinder the reflection of light of the ultimate reality by the mind.
pvssnraju

Subramanian.R

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Re: How does information transform into real knowledge?
« Reply #2 on: October 22, 2008, 11:33:31 AM »
Dear David,

Information is necessary to that extent so that one could sift
the grain from the chaff and take the requisite knowledge.  Even
this knowledge, is not necessary to an unlimited extent, as
Bhagavan Ramana says in Who am I?  Because, the self enquiry,
consists in focussing on the Heart Centre or Heart Cave, which
is inside you and not outside in books.  An adequate amount of
knowledge is all that is needed.  Why then, so many Upanishadas,
108 in number, why so many books etc.,  The idea is to choose
what is suited  most to any one individual.

To read Atma Bodham or Vivekachoodamani is to understand
the basic tenets governing the Self and non self.  To read
Naishkarmaya Siddhi and Panchadasi is to complicate.  Neverthelss,
these books are there to enable one to choose the best for him.
There are candies of different colours and different sizes. Children
choose different ones to suit their needs.

Arunachala Siva. 

David

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Re: How does information transform into real knowledge?
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2008, 05:45:18 PM »
Dear Raju and Subramanian,

Your responses both seem to point in the same direction. The western tendency to continually indulge the mind in information which is taken to be knowledge ( even of the inferior kind) seems misguided. You are both pointing to the self-luminous nature of real knowledge, arising as the Self alone. Is this understanding right?
If this is a correct understanding, how is the mirror- that on which this self-luminous Light shines- cleaned?  Am I right in thinking that the mirror is really the Mind? I understand ( as information!!) that the mind needs to be clear of its tendencies ( of which there are many), but what is the situation if the mind is dissolved or killed?  Or is this just an 'I" trying to hold onto his precious Mind? Again, your views would be helpful. Thank you.
David

Subramanian.R

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Re: How does information transform into real knowledge?
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2008, 07:08:11 PM »
Dear David,

I am happy to note your responses.  The mind is the mirror, how to
clean it?  To remove the dirt, the unwanted objective thoughts have
to be controlled and finally annihilated. If you see a mirror, you
see a two-day old beard and you shave it.  This is the process.

Do not worry about killing the mind.  This will happen at the
appropriate time.  Killing of mind per se, need not be feared.
We are so used to the mind-body consciousness and we are
afraid of losing it.  It may in the beginning, give you a feeling
of emptiness and unmanageable fear that you may start feeling
that you are going mad!  This is again the mind's mischief.

Arunachala Siva.     

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Re: How does information transform into real knowledge?
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2008, 07:31:42 PM »
Dear David,
               If the mind is cleared of tendencies there is no obstruction to the reflection of effulgence of self and in vedantic jargon it is called
manonasa(destruction of the mind),it should not be understood as a literal destruction.Mind will be there but ego is annihilated.It is the
tendencies that cause spurious growth of the ego which interferes with the reflection of self effulgence.Destruction of tendencies amounts to destruction of the ego.In English it is termed as nomind state(Amanaska state in vedantic jargon).In this state all physiological functions continue through
mind but only the anomaly of volition(sankalpa) and doubt(vikalpa)  is destroyed forever.
pvssnraju

David

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Re: How does information transform into real knowledge?
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2008, 02:08:44 AM »
Dear David,

I am happy to note your responses.  The mind is the mirror, how to
clean it?  To remove the dirt, the unwanted objective thoughts have
to be controlled and finally annihilated. If you see a mirror, you
see a two-day old beard and you shave it.  This is the process.

Do not worry about killing the mind.  This will happen at the
appropriate time.  Killing of mind per se, need not be feared.
We are so used to the mind-body consciousness and we are
afraid of losing it.  It may in the beginning, give you a feeling
of emptiness and unmanageable fear that you may start feeling
that you are going mad!  This is again the mind's mischief.

Arunachala Siva.     

Dear Subramanian,
Again, thank you for this response. There is a mind tendency which does not seem to worry about the concept of destroying the mind; but there is also a mind tendency which does. I am thankful for the warning about emptiness and "going mad" - there will be a special care not to be too concerned if that happens. But the question remains: How to shave the ideas from the mind which have had more than two days growth!! Thought control often seems to have a sense of 'doing' about it. Control of the senses is so often quoted in the scriptures but seldom with any practical guidance. Can you help? Sorry this all seems so basic.
David

David

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Re: How does information transform into real knowledge?
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2008, 02:16:58 AM »
Dear David,
               If the mind is cleared of tendencies there is no obstruction to the reflection of effulgence of self and in vedantic jargon it is called
manonasa(destruction of the mind),it should not be understood as a literal destruction.Mind will be there but ego is annihilated.It is the
tendencies that cause spurious growth of the ego which interferes with the reflection of self effulgence.Destruction of tendencies amounts to destruction of the ego.In English it is termed as nomind state(Amanaska state in vedantic jargon).In this state all physiological functions continue through
mind but only the anomaly of volition(sankalpa) and doubt(vikalpa)  is destroyed forever.

Dear Raju,
Thank you also for your reply. There is a little confusion arising. Sometimes Ramana seems to say that the 'I' thought ( ego) is mind; what then allows for the physiological functions to continue if mind is destroyed? Is there a superior intelligence that is at work without mind? If the answer to that is 'yes', does this imply that the Self needs no mind and if so, how does humankind operate day by day? Hope these questions are not too burdensome?
Incidentally, from Saturday afternoon I shall not be near internet access for about a week. If I go off air for a while I shall pick things up when I return to the UK.
Thank you.
David

gangajal

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Re: How does information transform into real knowledge?
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2008, 02:24:34 AM »
Dear David,
   
       Chittasuddhi or cleansing of the mind is sine qua non for all spiritual aspirants. Chittasuddhi
includes the idea of control of the senses. How can one control one's senses? I will give an answer
from the point of view of Bhakti or Raj or Karma Yoga. What people do is to concentrate their mind
at the heart center and then ask the Ishta Devata in the heart center to destroy their lust, greed etc.
Do this for an hour every day from now on. You will see improvement after some time. No Yoga will
succeed unless your mind is cleansed.

Gangajal

ramanaduli

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Re: How does information transform into real knowledge?
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2008, 03:31:43 AM »
Dear gangajal


What you said is 100% correct. Before starting any yoga we should be  like a clean and empty cup where divine or grace will be poured  in  the cup (heart).


Ramanaduli

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: How does information transform into real knowledge?
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2008, 09:52:46 AM »
Dear David,
                Suddha Manas allows the physiological functions to continue after the destruction of the ego.Self needs the help of suddha manas
for work in the phenomenal reality after one attains self realisation.All saints work with suddha manas after realisation.
pvssnraju

Subramanian.R

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Re: How does information transform into real knowledge?
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2008, 12:22:35 PM »
Dear David,

Only one thing to add.  Bhagavan Ramana says in Who am I?:

"The thoughts will be coming forth as if some soldiers coming out
of the enemy's fort.  Keep on annihilating them.  Then, the fort
will come to your hand."

Fort is Heart Centre.  Thoughts are solidiers.  These enemies are
occuping the Fort.  Vanquish them one by one.

To have your chin smooth like glass, you have to keep on shaving.
One day, hairs will not spring forth!

Arunachala Siva.

David

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Re: How does information transform into real knowledge?
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2008, 06:19:25 PM »
Dear David,
                Suddha Manas allows the physiological functions to continue after the destruction of the ego.Self needs the help of suddha manas
for work in the phenomenal reality after one attains self realisation.All saints work with suddha manas after realisation.

Dear Raju,

Thank you. Could you explain Suddha Manas please. This is not a term with which there is familiarity.
David

Subramanian.R

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Re: How does information transform into real knowledge?
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2008, 06:52:29 PM »
Dear David,

Pure Mind or Siddha Manas, is like a burnt rope.  It does not harm
any one, it does not suffer from thoughts.  This pure mind helps
the Jnanis, to help others in their path.

Arunachala Siva.

DRPVSSNRAJU

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Re: How does information transform into real knowledge?
« Reply #14 on: October 24, 2008, 07:25:32 PM »
Dear David,
               Suddha manas is uncontaminated "I-am-the-body-idea" in which one is conscious that he is living in a particular body but there is no
identity with the body.When there is identity with the body "I-am-the-body-idea"is contaminated and when he says "I"he means that he is a
body only.When "I-am-the-body-idea" is uncontaminated it functions from the self and when it says "I" it means self.Uncontaminated
"I-am-the-the-body-idea"functions with awareness of the self whereas contaminated "I-am-the-body-idea"functions from the ego centre.
So Suddha Manas means a mind which is free of all tendencies,so posited in the self and acts with the awareness of self.There is no relic
of personality in such a mind in contrast to egoistic mind which functions from the personality born out of his innate tendencies.
pvssnraju