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Messages - Nagaraj

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Dear Srkudai,

Really I am no authority to clear your doubt, I can just voice out my opinion

1.  Self is actionless, Still and unchanging - True.     according to my understanding actionless does not mean static but an action without a Reaction, a simple spontaneous action. Ramana Maharshi was ever actionless, still and remained unchanged ever and still is. Actionless means pure action without any sort of effort at all from our part, totally free of intellectual exercise.

Ramana Maharshi has also displayed anger at certain times on some I remember on some person who was sporting himself as a realized person, I have read it in complete talks, and also has cried in some instances, when he listened to Periya Puranam, specially Kannapa's story.

By the word 'reaction' I mean a simple spontaneous actions without any thought or intellectual exercise or with a predetermined plan of action just like our breath. It just happens without any effort on our part.

2.  Use or uselessness of this knowledge does not matter at all. if we consider it useful so be it, if we consider useless then also so be it so long its only natural to you. Its actually beyond both Usefulness and Uselessness.

Something is considered useful if it satisfies Self's view or existing knowledge, something is considered useless if it does not satisfies Self's view or existing knowledge.

Ramana Maharshi never learnt the Vedas but knew all the Vedanta. A perfect example, for Maharshi, all these knowledge is completely Useless but at the same time he always spent a lot of time researching a lot of works in Tamil, Malayalam and Sanskrit as well. It was beyond both Usefulness and Uselessness.


Dear Srkudai and Subramanian,

The chief among the Mantras for the Shaivites is the Panchakshari (5 lettered) mantra, 'Om Nama Shivaya' and 'Om Namo Narayana' for Vaishnavites. Without the letter ‘ra’, ‘Narayana’ would read as ‘Nayana’ that means one without a way (‘gati’); without the letter ‘ma’, ‘Namasivaya’ would read as ‘Nasivaya’ that means inauspicious.

So the jiva akshara (life giving letters) 'Ra' and 'Ma' of these two Mantras are put together to form the Rama Nama!
Anyone chanting this Divine Name thus worships both Shiva and Vishnu at the same time.

I am eager to participate in this devotional journey. Sri Rama is my Ishta Devatha. I love Rama as mush as I love Ramana.


Dear Srkudai

:)  Its an ongoing process or journey or what ever we may like to call it. What I have tried to illustrate is just one of the aspects and not the ultimate aspect of Brahman for it be so, I would not be here typing out all these posts here.

Its just a small knowledge in the journey that one will eventually learn that everything is the Self itself.

Thats why Veda and Vedanta has been segregated. Veda is knowledge and Vedanta is end of the knowledge.

Among the Varnashramas, the Brahmachari learns everything about Brahman, not everyones journey is ended in Brahmachari ashrama itself, He marries, has children then goes to forest and then does tapas about all the knowledge he has learnt so far.

I never said I am complete whether the objects are there are not. But the truth is that all pleasure, pains, objects everything is in our own Self. Everything is filled in our own Self. eventually all these will and should go away.

I feel its wrong to think 'of what use is knowledge which cannot liberate us?' for the Knowledge itself is part of the Self. Its also in the Self only.
so in such case, only Vedanta would suffice. if knowledge and Brahman is separate then Veda and Vedanta is separate.

The Self itself is Veda and Vedanta.

When you just posted your response. I read your post. what ever you have conveyed in your post and my response to this post is my own response to my own (your) post.

When you now read my post as a response, if you have any response to it, it is your response to your own (my) post?

do you get it? I find it difficult to write it out!

Upanishads say Self is everywhere. when you read this, you are here and you are reading this, and you understand it. and if there is a question in this post, its your own question which is already there in you. and if you are responding to that question, its your own answer to your own question.

I am You. You am I

from here, the journey continues. what ever is stored in the mud pot will also disappear any time for eventually we will find that it also is not there. The mud pot does not break for the space to merge with the space outside the mud pot. for mud pot itself is in the space.


The teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi / Re: Suri Nagamma
« on: March 02, 2009, 11:17:10 AM »
Even I would love to meet them. How blessed they must be. Old devotees interviews have been posted in Ramana Maharshi's website. You may be interested to watch them.


Dear Srkudai,

Yes, what you say is correct,  :) as the thread of this topic had advanced to the levels of Mind, imagination sorts and etc..., I felt it appropriate to post the Mind Stuff chapter from the Advaita Bodha Deepika.

Even the second point you conveyed is also correct. To such a person who is dragged by Vasanas, these teachings are important. I was trying to convey that even such a person (the other) is also the Self itself. The other person is also the Self itself experiencing the other person being dragged by Vasanas.

For example, when we are seeing a movie, a particular character in the movie experiences Happiness, sorry, hatred, cries, dances, fights etc... its actually only a movie, but when the movie is sensitive, dont we also experience all those emotions? we also cry, we laugh, we are aroused with passion when the Good is destroying the evil? similarly the Self itself is experiencing the other person.

Let other person be. each person Self is only IS. all other person object observation and observed everything is the Self itself. In this perspective there is no other at all.

we cry watching a movie, when the Good cries for some sad scene, we also cry at that time! but its just a movie, but all the emotions are ours own. not the Character in the movie.

Similarly, when we see a person being dragged by Vasanas, its actually our own Self, It is recollecting its own experiences and now having arrived at the knowledge that its the Vasanas that dragged him and for him all these teachings are important. all these thoughts are the Self's own.

The thought that the person being dragged by the Vasanas is also the Self's only. like emotions experienced by watching a movie.


General topics / Re: Mankuthimmana Kagga (Song of Mankuthimma)
« on: March 02, 2009, 08:37:38 AM »

This illusion, appears dance-like
Where is the fear for one who has seen the origin?
Unattached at depth, bound by rules for outward
Looks, Brahma loves to play - Mankuthimma

Dark and lovely Krishna - is also Narasimha
Moon - wearing Shiva is also roaring Rudra
Mountain - born Parvathi like ferocious Kali
Virtue and violence are together - Mankuthimma

What is truth in the cosmic dance?
Dancing is the truth for ocean waves
Myth is myth, life - drama is true
This is Brahma's doing - Mankuthimma

What is Dharma? What is Karma?
What is the story of the vast universe? What is life?
Brahma is the nucleus of all, illusion is his trap
Brahma is Life - Mankuthimma

Exploring the crooked and straight world is duty
Crude voice is just sound and cultured voice melody
Awakening you from the unknown to the known
Makes mind righteous - Mankuthimma


General topics / Mankuthimmana Kagga (Song of Mankuthimma)
« on: March 01, 2009, 07:42:33 PM »
Mankuthimmana Kagga is one of the most famous and popular major literary works in Kannada, composed by Dr. D. V. Gundappa (known by the name D V G), and published in 1943. It is widely regarded as a masterpiece among the Kannada speaking population of southern India. It is in fact called the Bhagavad Gita in Kannada. The title of this work can be translated as "Song of Mankutimma". Kagga is a beautiful and profound collection of 945 poems. Each poem is of four lines.

Kagga explores deeper questions of life, contemplates on the meaning of ultimate truth (reality) and advises us to lead a balanced life in this complex ever changing world. Thus Kagga advises us to follow the middle path extending one hand towards the ultimate truth and the other hand to the phenomenal world. The message of many of the songs from Kagga is samatwa.

He begins with all the questions in his mind

I like to dedicate this thread to Mankuthimmana Kagga. I would say its the Kural of Kannada

1  Sri Vishnu, Origin or universe, illusionary
   God, God of Gods, the ultimate(supreme)
   Which is unseen, but people believe in
   Bow to that marvel - Mankuthimma

2  Life, still life, universe, something
    Dwelling in and out unknown
    Unconfined to soul immeasurable
    Bow to that distinction  - Mankuthimma

3  Is it there or not there, the unknown truth,
    Becoming great universe, disguised as life,
    Amusing itself, if found to be good,
    Bow to that profound unknown truth - Mankuthimma

What is the meaning of Life?

What is the meaning of life? What is world's meaning?
What relationship between life and world?
Anything unseen there? What is it?
Is it beyond our knowledge? - Mankuthimma

Is God a dark cave?
Is it a name given to that unknown?
When there is a Saviour, why's this the world's story?
What is birth and death? - Mankuthimma

Is creation a riddle? What is the meaning of life?
Who will analyse and untangle this surprise?
If a hand created this unoiverse
Why is life so diversified? - Mankuthimma

Who is the lord of life? One or several?
Fate, valor, virtue or blind force?
How to improve this chaos?
Is perplexity the end point? - Mankuthimma

Is there any order or aim in creation?
Does the creator's mind wonder now and then?
If at all He is kind and affectionate
Why do lives struggle so? - Mankuthimma


General topics / Auvaiyar
« on: March 01, 2009, 06:00:03 PM »
Auvaiyar's aathichoodi is one of the best and most simple teachings for humanity for simple devout and even for highly educated people. they explain the basic wisdom to be cultivated by each one of us. I like Auvaiyar for her simplicity and her emotional devotion towards Murugan.


அறம் செய விரும்பு          Be desirous of doing virtue
ஆறுவது சினம்                 It is the nature of anger to temper in time
இயல்வது கரவேல்            Never stop learning
ஈவது விலக்கேல்              Don't prevent charity (Always be charitable)
உடையது விளம்பேல்        Avoid words that could hurt ( Don't boast of your possessions)
ஊக்கமது கைவிடேல்        Don't give up perseverance
எண் எழுத்து இகழேல்        Don't despise learning
ஏற்பது இகழ்ச்சி                Acceptance (begging alms) is despicable
ஐயமிட்டுண்                     Eat after donating (to the needy)
ஒப்புர வொழுகு                Act virtuously
ஓதுவது ஒழியேல்             Don't give up reading (scriptures)
ஒளவியம் பேசேல்            Don't carry tales


Dear Subramanian

I did not misunderstand you. when I said I can just put a full stop, I meant that there is nothing more to add to what you had posted :) about Gaudapada. thats the end of all discussion.


Nothing to display

I can just put a full stop  .

Whatever we discuss here in this forum, the Self is discussing with itself only. whatever answers and questions are put here are Self's own. whatever answer is posted by the Self as a reply to some question is its own answer for that question and whenever question is posted by the Self and an answer is posted for that question, that answer is also the Self's own for that question. It is the Self that is posting questions and responses. It creates various users like the child example just discussed.

This is the Self own response to its own post.

This is my (Self's) understanding


Also by the course of the conversations, it so appears like Cats Self or Dogs Self is distinct from the Self, As per my understanding goes, there is only one Self, the Cats Self or Dogs Self being discussed is the Self itself.


Dear Avatar

"Of course, there's a mind and thoughts in this matter (child born dead or blind). But there's a mind too when you quote the sage and the sage is mind too when he stated all these. Everything is mind. Still the question is: born dead children are realized? What happened with them, and so forth? And the answer is: no, they're not."

is also your own thought.

Was the child born? how does the child die?  The reality is when the child is born a new world of thoughts are created only in your mind, and the thoughts experience the thought world from the childs perspective only. (note the thought has created the new thought world of the child) and the child dies, this thought world experienced so long by the mind just dies.

What is birth and death? there is no birth or death at all.

My point is that when the child and the other things are created by the thoughts itself, why should it matter if it got realized or not realized? is all again thoughts only.

If you say there is mind and thoughts in this matter, then it is fictitious, non existent. Mirage - then where is birth and death? its also just a cinema. It just like a cinema, what happens at last? suspense and the end is known, after a lot of drama. and then another film starts.


according to my understanding, the birth or the child, its death, whether the child has thoughts no thoughts, their being blind etc... is all our own thoughts only (mind). Whether they are realized or liberated or still to realize or still to be liberated, all such thoughts (questions) are only mind. Why should it matter if they are realized or not realized?

To this exercise of thought pattern, the sage in Advaita Bodha Deepika has replied thus for questoin 12-13:

"Of objects of senses, such as sound, already experienced
as ‘I saw — I heard — I touched etc.’ to think of them as
having been seen, heard, touched is the recollection of things
already experienced. To call to mind unexperienced objects of
senses is the thought of unexperienced things."

So there is no child, no birth or death and all other observations are all only the thoughts - Mind.

The Sage also says

"M.: Wherever thought arises as this and that, there is the mind."


I also think that the very effort made to remove our Vasanas is taking us away from our real Self.

Being thoughtlessness is not blank or no thoughts, as per my understanding its just spontaneous. Vasanas dont go away. I think Vasanas are also a thought only.

When Krishna says you have rights only on action but not the fruits, then such action can only be spontaneous action without any thought process going on in our mind.

Vyasa when he segregate the Vedas in 4 sections. He also has said not to believe whatever is written here unless you understand, feel and become the teachings itself.

Thoughts are nothing but our mind itself, and when such mind itself is just a Mirage, why do we need to do something to remove a non existing mind. If this mind is deserving realization, then its only a mirage, A non existing thing wanting realization is only a thought.

We have to just be.


The last chapter of the Advaita Bodha Deepika speaks thus:

D.: What is the nature of mind?
M.: To think this and that. In the absence of thought, there
can be no mind. On the thoughts being extinguished the mind
will remain only in name like the horn of a hare; it will vanish as
a non-entity like a barren woman’s son, or a hare’s horn, or a
flower in the sky. This is also mentioned in the Yoga Vasishta.
D.: How?
M.: Vasishta says: ‘Listen, O Rama, there is nothing to
speak of as mind. Just as the ether exists without form, so also
the mind exists as the blank insentience. It remains only in
name; it has no form. It is not outside, nor is it in the heart. Yet
like the ether, the mind though formless fills all’.
D.: How can this be?
M.: Wherever thought arises as this and that, there is the
D.: If there be mind wherever there is thought, are thought
and mind different?
M.: Thought is the index of the mind. When a thought
arises mind is inferred. In the absence of thought, there can be
no mind. Therefore mind is nothing but thought. Thought is
itself mind.
D.: What is ‘thought’?
M.: ‘Thought’ is imagination. The thought-free state is
Bliss Supreme (Sivasvarupa). Thoughts are of two kinds; the
recalling of things experienced and unexperienced.
11. D.: To begin with, please tell me what is ‘thought’.
M.: Sages say that it is nothing but to think of any external
object as this or that, is or is not, this-wise or that-wise, etc.
12-13. D.: How is this to be classified under the heads of
things experienced and unexperienced?
M.: Of objects of senses, such as sound, already experienced
as ‘I saw — I heard — I touched etc.’ to think of them as
having been seen, heard, touched is the recollection of things
already experienced. To call to mind unexperienced objects of
senses is the thought of unexperienced things.
14. D.: That thoughts pertain to things already experienced
is understandable. But how to think of those not so experienced
unless they are reminiscences of things already experienced? One
can never think of things not experienced. How then can we say
— to think of things not already experienced is ‘thought’?
15. M.: Yes, it is quite possible. To think of things not
experienced is also thought. Objects unexperienced appear as
such only after thinking.


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