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Messages - Nagaraj

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4906
Dear Subramanian,

Excellent summary! I also felt that to live in present is to be devoid of Past and Future. Past and Future are but thoughts only. i.e. to remain as the present is to simply stop the thought process. When the thinking stops, the Past and Future automatically ceases to be. Only present IS.

Bhagawan's Vichara I felt is to culminate all our efforts to a point where Vichara also ceases to be. Where Vichara ends is the eternal 'I'

In a way Vichara is also a thought process, dabbling with past and future, Analyzing is possible only by ones own past experience. Therefore when one does Vichara, He is actually dabbling with his past alone, therefor for everyone of us, by constant practice and deep contemplation or Vichara, a point will wome where Vichara will end voluntarily as all the Past experiences or thoughts would have been completely analyzed and no more thoughts are to be found for one to dabble with it in Vichara.

To be as present requires absolutely zero effort. nothing to do. JUST BE. But we are unable to be without effort. When Bhagawan says go back where you came from, he meant go back to a point where there is no effort. Nothing to do. Vichara is therefore done to get backwards and not forwards to that zero effort state.

Like they say, you can take out a thorn only by a thorn, similarly, Thoughts or the Ego is destroyed by Vichara alone - Thinking alone.

Nagaraj

4907
The teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi / Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« on: April 08, 2009, 11:53:23 AM »
Dear Udai,

Here there is a beginning and an end because, Swami Vivekananda was only induced in to THAT state by Sri Ramakrishna. He was Given to have an experience of THAT state. Swami Vivekananda wanted to only experience THAT state. He wanted to know what THAT state is  like, He wanted to know, experience the ultimate STATE but he he had not become THAT state. Sri Ramakrishna was already in THAT state. Here Swami Vivekananda is like a person/Student who is yet to learn swimming but he wanted to know what swimming is even before he learnt to jump into the water. He was granted that STATE and Sri Ramakrishan got him out of THAT state, he did not come out of that experience.

Whereas Ramakrishna who is ever in THAT state has no beginning or and end. Like Ramana Maharshi, he said where can I go I am here only.

This was just a peek into the glory of Brahman not the Brahman itSelf. similarly its only a peek for us as well. We are also just in amoeba size just experiencing or knowing that STATE.

4908
Thinking itself is either past of future, devoid of this is eternal or present, because for the present there is no thinking, It is as it is. Past and Future if what is called Maya - a Non existent for the present!

'You' or 'I' are the 'thinking' or the Ego itself is 'thinking' or a Thought. The Ego is nothing but a bundle of thoughts.

Nagaraj

4909
The teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi / Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« on: April 07, 2009, 10:09:30 PM »
In the context of the matter being discussed, I read this story given below somewhere -

Swami Vivekananda was known for his dogged determination and refusal to accept anything without empirical evidence, even in matters of spirituality. He approached various Gurus with this query, "have you seen God"? The answer was almost always negative, or if yes, a deeply shaky one ... which he could never digest. Ramakrishna Paramahamsa's bold and resounding yes prodded him to seek refuge and accept Him as his master. Even so, he put himself and his Guru through several tests, till the very end. One incident is noteworthy. Vivekananda once requested / was given a sample of the state of mind where he FELT HIMSELF to be the Brahman, pervading everything, contained in everything and yet beyond everything. This state of mind after a while made him restless and proved to be cumbersome to his everyday life. Even mundane chores like eating posed a threat to him ... after all, He Himself was the Eater, the Eaten, the very task of Eating all at once AND neither of it also, simultaneously. He then asked to be absolved of the responsibility of handling this state perpetually since it was hindering any form of activity. Legend has it that on his request, the experience ceased to be and went back to the state of mere awareness or knowledge.

This goes to prove that in THAT state, the movie does not continue as there is no movie separate or apart. Also, in the incident quoted above, Swami Vivekananda was only induced to THAT state from Sri Ramakrishna just to show him a glimpse of THAT state.

Nagaraj


4910
The teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi / Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« on: April 06, 2009, 07:49:08 PM »
Dear Udai,

By this, we understand about the Real and the Unreal. Yes the Unreal Ramana in the Screen releases us from the Unreal to the Real. This seems to be the end of knowledge. Once when this is understood, I presume by my understanding that one is released or freed or is a state of realised.  Once we have this understanding, we will not mind what ever is happening around us as there is no Self interest involved as everything is only a movie. I know all the people near me, my dear ones, friends and relatives are all only the characters in the movie. Shouldn't the movie end?

The movie was so long moving because we 'I' was playing the character because of Ignorance. But once when 'I' realised that it is not the character but just an illusion, shouldn't the movie end then and there? Its like, 'I' - Rope due to ignorence appeard or became the 'Snake' Then due to grace of something like Ramana in the movie tells us that I am not the Snake but the Rope. Now at this instance the illusion is wiped out. 'I' Know that I am not a Snake but 'I' am Rope (I = Rope) Why then does the movie continue? Like we are obliged to continue on our roles. Like the Rope after becoming aware that it is Not Snake continues to play the role of Snake. Are you getting what I am trying to tell?

Why does the Snake still continues to play the role? after being aware about its real nature - Rope! Should not the Snake disappear? This is the incompleteness in me.

Even after understanding that I am not the character in the movie, I am still watching the movie and I am obliged to continue performing the role I was performing due to ignorence. Why is this?

Nagaraj

4911
The teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi / Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« on: April 06, 2009, 05:08:58 PM »
"Who is this", who is asking the question or typing here? Why am I wanting to know this 'Who is this', who is asking the question or typing here?"

4912
The teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi / Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« on: April 06, 2009, 05:06:30 PM »
Dear Udai,

:) yes both are one and the same - Unreal. I meant any attempt, anything is unreal!

Nagaraj

4913
The teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi / Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« on: April 06, 2009, 05:01:36 PM »
Dear Udai,

You are very correct! There is nothing to think more! What from here? Is this That? - Is this to be just be

Nagaraj

4914
The teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi / Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« on: April 06, 2009, 04:29:10 PM »
Dear Udai,

I found that the question itself is an illusion :) ! And any answer to the question is an answer just to the question and not ME! I don't have any questions!  The question is like my reflection on the mirror - not real. It ends here. The questions are like the salt in the water. It gets dissolved in the water. I pray that I am like this always, to not get swayed by Maya!



4915
The teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi / Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« on: April 06, 2009, 03:07:50 PM »
Dear Udai,

I believe Bhagawan did not at all require anything at all absolutely. Even food was only secondary to him. As he was a Guru and so many at his feet, he simply ate so that people don't begin to ape him. I have read in Talks where He sometimes, when he had just had his lunch, a big group would bring him food to eat, however since he could not say no because of their love, He ate another lunch, and sometimes 2 to 3 groups used to bring him something to eat and he did not refuse them because of their love. In spite that his stomach may be completely full!  On the other hand, on several occasions, he remained un eaten for several days. The best and most memorable example to cite is when he remained motionless in the Pathala Linga Shrine, No one knows how many weeks he remained there without food or even water.

He stuck to few norms because he did not want people to simply ape him, he lived among humans just like them, thats why he engaged in activities even though he did not have any requirement of it. He got up as early as 3 in the morning to cut vegetables and helped in cooking chores so that, people ape him in best of ways.

Yes the example is understood and it conveyed its point, it has no use beyond that, but the questions have not yet ended here. Questions will keep springing out till there are no more questions at all :) can't avoid that one. In every example a doubt is cleared but again a new question raises from the same answer till the clouds are cleared and the all glorious Sun alone is found itself pervading everything!

Nagaraj





4916
When Ramana Maharshi was asked to name sages who had lived in the exalted state of Atiasrami, he referred to Jada Bharata, King Rishabha and Suka.

Bharata, a pious king, renounced his kingdom and was doing penance in the forest. One day his penance was disturbed by the roar of a lion chasing a pregnant deer. He then saw a deer jump across the nearby river escaping from the lion, but it fell dead because of the impact. However, the baby deer slipped alive from its wob and fell into the water. Bharata took it out and reared it all his life. He was so much attached to it that in his next birth he was born as a deer. However, because of the intense penance in his previous birth, he did not wate time, but spent most of it in the company and proximity of sages and saints in their ashrams. While giving up the deer's body, he prayed for liberation in his next birth. He was born again in a pious Brahmin family.

In this birth also he was blessed to remember his previous births and the follies he had committed. Now he remained uninterested in any movement, physically and mentally. Disappointed with his inertia, his parents named him Jada Bharata(Inert Bharata). But actually, he was all the time immersing himself in the presence of the Truth (I am) within. His body was however wwll built and sturdy.

One day while he was seated on a rock, king Rahugana, a proud person, was passing by in a palanquin carried by r servants. Since the king was in a hurry, the palanquin bearers sought th help of the stocky Jada Bharata to carry the palanquin faster. Jada Bharata obliged, but jumped now and then to avoid hurting the ants on the road. This annoyed the king, who warned him of severe punishment  if he did not stop his dancing.

Jada Bharata looked long and silently at the king. For the first time after his birth, without raising his voice, without any rancour, Jada Bharata spoke thus:

These are the Teachings

1. You are angry with me because you think that I am not carrying your palanquin properly. You spoke with sarcasm when you said that I have been carrying the burden too long and that I am tired. Your meaning is that I am not one bit tired by this burden. In a way, your words are true.

2. But your desire to hurt me with your sarcasm is, I am afraid, pointless. It does not hurt me. Shall I tell you why? You are under the impression that this body of mine is real and that the burden it has been carrying all the while is also real.

3. If this is true, then your words should certainly have hurt me. But then how can you be sure that these 2 are real? I cannot prove that this body of mine is real, nor can I prove that the burden it has been carrying is also real. Under the circumstances, how can it be possible to hurt a person or a thing which is nn-existent? The Real I in ME has absolutely no connection wigth this so called body of mine and the insults to this body or injustices heaped on this body do not affect ME in the least.

4. You said that I have been carrying the burden alone for a long distance and that I am tired. You meant to insult me, I know, but I do not choose to be insulted. The reason is this: If it is true there is distance to be covered; If there is a purpose to be achieved by covering that distance; and if these 2 factors have anything to do with ME, then and only then should I be affected by your remarks. But then, I am not sure of the existence of either of these things or my connection with them. And, so I am not affected by your words.

........ To be continued




4917
Dear Paul,

Actually if you look into literature, there are many English writers who have presented the tenets of Hinduism and its core principles in their works. Just to name a few, TS Elliot, Wordsworth and Shakespeare have had the great ideals of Vedanta and it reflected in their works. What this proves is that the Grandeur i.e. the Truth is one and the same to all.

Abraham Maslow, American Psychologist, the Propounder of "Self Actualization" in his paper "Hierarchy of needs" on Human Motivation has included his observation on Humans innate curiosity and needs.

Its amazing that even deep western thinkers have the ideals of Vedanta even without their prior knowledge of the Vedas or Upanishads. You can clearly observe in the works of Paulo Coelho that he has covered all the four aspects of Yogas of Vedanta viz. Karma, Bhakti, Jnana Yoga.  His most famous book is Alchemist. Many writers have had the idea of Advaita by their deep thinking and reflected that in the works without actually referring to Vedanta. Truth is eternal, the same for everyone.

Maslow puts it this way, every human has this Hierarchy of needs in the process where one is Self Actualized or in our terms Self Realisation:

Physiological needs - These are the most basic human needs which are important for sustenance
like food, water, warmth, shelter, sleep etc. Maslow argued that unless physiological needs are
satisfied to a degree, no other motivating factor can work.

Safety or Security needs - These are needs to be free of physical danger and emotional harm like
the fear of losing a job, property, food or shelter. It relates to security, protection and stability in
the personal events of everyday life.

Social Needs - These are needs for love, affection and belongingness and social acceptance.
People are social beings and try to satisfy their needs for acceptance and friendship.

Esteem - Once people's social needs are satisfied, they look for esteem (reputation). This need
produces such satisfaction as power, prestige status and self confidence. It includes both internal
esteem factors like self-respect, autonomy, achievements and external esteem factors such as
recognition and attention as well as personal sense of competence. (Source)

Self actualization - This need is the drive to become what one is capable of becoming. It's the
need to grow and use abilities to the fullest potential. It includes growth and self-fulfillment by
achieving one's potential to accomplish something

This is just a brief information. A person, who does not have any idea about Vedanta, of the Soul, of Self Realisation is able to understand the same essence as we do in a complete different way. The names may not really match exactly to the Vedanta Terms but we can see their effort towards Self Realisation.

Similarly,

The Pancha Koshas can be roughly understood as the 5 Needs of Humans, The 'Sheath' or 'Koshas' are actually called 'cells' in Human Body, Psychologically we can take it as our Physiological needs. The Sheath or the invisible layers of our body needs to be nourished systematically.

The Pancha Koshas or the 5 Sheath's are:

Annamaya Kosha - Physiological needs (Food Nourishment)
Praanamaya Kosha - Safety or Security needs - (Energy)
Manomaya Kosha - Social Needs - (Emotions)
Vijnanamaya Kosha - Esteem (Ego)
Anandamaya Kosha - Self actualization (Brahman)

This appears in the Taittiriya Upanishad which gives the different stages of a Human towards the Goal Ananda - The Supreme Bliss or Sat Chit Ananda.

You can get a clear picture on this by the link provided by Munagala.

Being born as a Human being, the most primordial and basic need to to keep it going is to fuel it. therefore every human begins his journey into eternity from the Anna Maya Kosha or the Food Sheath. Here the Human primarily needs Food and Water for survival. His needs are limited to working out his way for his Food.

The Second need is energy. Praana simply means Energy. From the need for Food originates the energy. They are interrelated to each other. This is primarily signified by our breath. Our breath is our basic energy. The Nadis or the Nerves carry out the energy to all parts of the body to different organs to keep the body going. Here the Humans need is to develop the Energies in his Body.

Thirdly, Every human develops emotion. Emotional bonding with others and himself. Here Human tries to understand whatever is happening to him. He develops an  Emotive ability in determining and fulfilling all his emotions. The Love and understanding the other, the need for a company, to Co exist. According to Scriptures there are supposed to be Nava Rasas of 9 types of emotions. Here Human evolves himself in the Nava Rasas.


Fourthly, Vijnanamaya Kosha is Mental level, It clearly signifies the Intellectual abilities, discrimination, here the Human is really able to understand and appreciate the Truth! He begins to face the reality face to face. Here the Ego 'I' is more dominant than ever. In all the previous stages above, the HUman is not aware of even His Ego. It is only when he is traveling in Vijnanamaya Kosha that he is able to learn about himself the Ego in Him. Most of us reside in Vijnanamaya Kosha fluctuating between other Koshas. Here in when the Discriminative ability is Prominent.

Ananda Maya Kosha is the Sheath of Bliss or Sat Chit Ananda Here Perfection is achieved or what is called the Self Actualization by Maslow. This is the most Natural State of the Human or the Soul. There is no more needs to be fulfilled. ABsolute Completeness. Brahman.

These are the invisible Sheath or layers or cloths that cover the Soul  or Atman or Brahman. When different needs are met, it discards its layers one by one and finally in Vijnanamaya Kosha or Self Esteem when the Ego Drops the Brahman is only to be found and is COMPLETE. and it has no more layers or Sheath to itself and it only IS.


AL Tennyson wrote - God fulfills Himself in many ways, lest one good custom should corrupt the world.

Marshall McLuhan, a Canadean Philosopher coined in the Term "The world is a Global Village"

In the Vedas we have this idea from time immemorial "Vasdeiva Kutumbakam" The world world in one family

"Ekam Sat Vipraha bahudha vadanti" from The Rig Veda
There is but one God, learned scholars call this God by different names

"Sarve amritasya putrah"
We are all the children of God


Nagaraj











4918
The teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi / Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« on: April 05, 2009, 07:31:02 PM »
You are correct Dear Subramanian, That friction between the two should eventually end. The Enquiry has to continue despite the questions, more specifically when the friction is really hot and vibrating, its a critical point where one should be even more aware about his nature and one will surely cross over the sharp edged blade of life and be free which he is.

Just now, a butterfly somehow came into my house and was struggling to find it way out. I was trying to help it out to show the way out through the window, I was showing my had for the butterfly to rest so that I will take it out and free it, but it would not listen. It took me some time and I persuaded the butterfly to show its true way. I knew It would die if it is not shown its way out by flying in between the fan blade etc... Then finally I succeeded to slowly guide it outside the window.

I just reflected, in many ways we are all just like the butterfly. The Guru is trying to show us the way out, but we don't listen to him and keep roaming here and there in different rooms (Worlds) and also saves us from dangers like how I switched off the fans to make sure that the butterfly is not hurt or drop dead from hitting itself over the fan!

What a wonder.! :) I should be aware always and listen to the voice of Guru always!

Nagaraj

4919
General Discussion / Re: Humor
« on: April 05, 2009, 05:25:03 PM »
:) nice one. I enjoyed it! Its a profound humor for our contemplation & reflection!

4920
The teachings of Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi / Re: Madalasa Upadesha
« on: April 05, 2009, 05:14:58 PM »
Nice descriptions. I have a question, without the iron ball, there cannot be a fire. Similarly, To be aware that its only the character that is playing the role and not the 'I' It is untouched. But only when this 'I'(Fire) involves itself with the character(Iron Ball) only then the CHaracter is able to play its role (Note: The fire by itself will and cannot burn anything. Even to burn it involves itself with the ball to perform the role of burning). And to perform any action, the 'I' has to forget itself and become the character to play the role.

For eg. only when I keep my finger on the fire only then I burn. As a role the character has to keep its finger on the fire. For that moment the 'I' forgets itself and becomes the character to perform its duties. Otherwise how can the role perform its duties? As the 'I' is never bound at all. It only the character which has duties to perform, Karmas, etc...

To perform any duty, the eternal 'I' becomes the character to fulfill its obligatory duties, note the 'I' does not have any duty. In our worldly life is it possible to constantly be as the eternal 'I'? this 'I' will simply be. The character is able to perform only when this 'I' jumps into the fire becoming the character or else it will simply be.

Thus, I keep jumping into the fire and and remain as this 'I' every now and then, it is never constant. It feels to perform the obligations of th character it has to jump into the fire or else how will it play its role? after all its the same 'I' which plays the role as well!! When The role is being played it becomes the character by forgetting itself and when it simply is, IS.

I hope you underdtand my question, it little difficult to put into words.

Bhagawan, when he got realised, never had to play a role, he was as he IS. even when his mother came crying to him, he had no obligation to play the role of her son. He simply remained.

Perhaps, This itself is also another character and thats how it looks like! Then there seems to be no end!


Nagaraj

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